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Old December 14th, 2016, 08:50 PM   #51
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We do not have one single evidence for a chariot till Mauryan times or perhaps even later. But yet we have no trouble to accept the fact that The Vedic people until then did have chariots, and even fought wars on chariots! But we start questioning the absence of chariots, horses, swords, etc.. once we get to the Harappan period. See a pattern?

Yes, I do know the difference between a vyadha and a Kshatriya. You should know that the symbol that I posted "does not" tell you anything about whether he was a vyadha or Kshatriya. All it tells you is that the bow and arrow "were" used. Now, it does not preclude us to imagine that the bows and arrows were used for fighting with other people too. Can you do that? Unfortunately, some of the drawings from the Harappan period throw more questions at us than offer clues.

Yes, certainly traders needed Gods, and we had one of the Vaishya Sages in Rig Veda too (I forget his name, I will post it later). But that does not mean that the hymns start mentioning the places where the traders were headed to. I do not know how difficult it is to comprehend that. Let us say, I am a trader heading to another country, the hymns will only be prayers to the Lord to make my trade successful, and further, if travelling, the hymn will be like "let the travel be safe and yield us riches". I am doubtful if anybody would have a specific hymn like "Let the travel to XYZ be successful".

There are many hymns in Rig Veda that talk about the YajamAna praying for riches, without any necessity of mentioning the specific place where the trade is happening. Further, the dana stutis, and other riks that talk about Kings, do talk about some places, but that is incidental.

Some of the riks that talk about stealing cows are very symbolic. Perhaps you haven't given enough thought on those riks. See the Aryan invasion theory or contra thread where I have posted a few riks that have explicit mention of regional flora and fauna.

Again, having said that Harappans were Vedic does not mean they had to be Rig Vedic people. For all we know, it is possible that Rig Veda happened much earlier. It seems to me so far that is indeed the case.

Evidence of chariots in Pre Maurya times .

"For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand fighting elephants. And there was no boasting in these reports....."


Plutarch, Alexander, chapter 62, section 2
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Old December 15th, 2016, 01:49 AM   #52
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I do not know. I have not got my DNA checked. I am not sure how much of adivasi blood flows in my veins. Do you know for sure about your DNA? Sometimes the DNA reports spring up great surprises.
yep took Ancestry test few months ago, when i visited USA for a business Trip.

let's just say i am
(eurasian = C.Asia,Europe
West Asia = Turkey, Levent, Iran, Afghanistan, Arabics
South Asia = south India (companies graph showed whole subcontinent in bright blue color and afghanistan in light blue color)

My Result :

78% Eurasian
12% West Asian
10% South Asian

interestingly, my result matched to one kashmiri pundit (American immigrant living in Atlanta) and one punjabi Brahmin (in America, currently in New York) from pathankot region.

Kashmiri pundit :

87% Eurasian
3% West Asian
10% South Asian (same)


Punjabi Brahmin :

80% Eurasian
13% West Asian Asian
7% South Asian

you are from kamboja am i right sir ? you should get your DNA checked too. (it's costly process)

other hand my cousin scored 98% Eurasian. he have blue eyes and dirty blond hair. but i don't consider him pure brahmin because my aunt is White Irish. (R2) so we can say that his 40/50%+ Ancestry is not from C.Asia.

Last edited by Aham Brahmasmi; December 15th, 2016 at 01:52 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 06:17 AM   #53

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As you said, for an Indian, it is costly. USD 200 (INR 14,000) with NatGeo. I can spend that much money, but what the heck, why? I can buy a home gym for my grandson's for that kind of money.

Yes, we do have blue eyes in the family (mother and two younger brothers). Mine are bluish green (not as blue as their's). The next gen does not have blue eyes. Perhaps it would surface some time in future. They cannot erase it from their DNA.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 15th, 2016 at 06:19 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 06:36 AM   #54

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Since you mentioned Alexander, this is the account of his war with Porus from Alexander Cunningham's book "Ancient Geography of India":

The position of the two camps I believe to have been as follows : Alexander, with about 50,000 men, including 5000 Indian auxiliaries under Mophis of Taxila, had his head-quarters at Jalalpur, and his camp probably extended for about 6 miles along the bank of the river, from Shah Kabir, 2 miles to the north-east of Jalalpur, down to Syadpur, 4 miles to the west-south-west. The head- quarters of Porus must have been about Muhabatpur, 4 miles to the west-south-west of Mong, and 3 miles to the south east of Jalalpur. His army of nearly 50,000 men, including elephant-riders, archers, and charioteers, must have occupied about the same extent as the Macedonian army, and would, therefore, have extended about 2 miles above, and 4 miles below Muhabatpur.

From Arrian we learn that, as soon as the army had begun fording the channel, between the island and the main land, they were seen by the Indian scouts, who at once dashed off to inform Porus. When the ford was passed with some difficulty, Alexander halted to form his little army of 6000 infantry and about 10,000 cavalry. He then "marched swiftly forward with 5000 horse, leaving the infantry to follow him leisurely and in order." While this was going on, Porus had detached his son with two or three thousand horse and one hundred and twenty chariots to oppose Alexander. The two forces met at 20 stadia, or 2 miles, from the place of crossing, or about two miles to the north-east of Mong. Here the chariots proved useless on the wet and slippery clay, and were nearly all captured. The conflict, however, must have been a sharp one, as Alexander's favourite charger, Bukephalus, was mortally wounded by the young prince, who was himself slain, together with 400 of his men.

When Porus heard of the death of his son, he marched at once against Alexander with the greater part of his army; but when he came to a plain, where the ground was not difficult and slippery, but firm and sandy, and fitted for the evolutions of his chariots, he halted and arrayed his troops ready for battle. His 200 elephants were drawn up in front of the infantry about one pleihron, or 100 feet apart, and the chariots and cavalry were placed on the flanks. By this arrangement, the front of the army facing north-east must have occupied an extent of about 4 miles, from the bank of the river to near Lakhnawali, the centre of the line being, as nearly as possible, on the site of the present town of Mong. Around this place the soil is "firm and sound "; but towards the north-east, where Alexander encountered the young Indian prince, the surface is covered with a hard red clay, which be comes both heavy and slippery after rain.

When Alexander saw the Indian army drawn up in battle array, he halted to wait for his infantry, and to reconnoitre the enemy's position. As he was much superior to Porus in cavalry, he resolved not to attack the centre, where the formidable line of elephants were supported by masses of infantry, but to fall upon both flanks and throw the Indians into disorder. The right wing, led by Alexander himself, drove back the enemy's horse upon the line of elephants, which then advanced and kept the Macedonians in check for some time." Wherever Porus saw cavalry advancing, he opposed elephants, but these slow and unwieldy animals could not keep pace with the rapid evolutions of the horse." At length the elephants, wounded and frightened, rushed madly about, trampling down friends as well as foes. Then the small body of Indian horse being surrounded, was overpowered by the Macedonians, and nearly all slain; and the large mass of Indian infantry, which still held out, being vigorously attacked on all sides by the victorious horse, broke their ranks and fled.

It is possible that Alexander's army traversed along the rivulet between the two hill ranges and thus was hidden from Porus' look-outs.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Porus.jpg (64.8 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Mong.jpg (69.0 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 15th, 2016 at 06:45 AM.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
As you said, for an Indian, it is costly. USD 200 (INR 14,000) with NatGeo. I can spend that much money, but what the heck, why? I can buy a home gym for my grandson's for that kind of money.

Yes, we do have blue eyes in the family (mother and two younger brothers). Mine are bluish green (not as blue as their's). The next gen does not have blue eyes. Perhaps it would surface some time in future. They cannot erase it from their DNA.
i paid 310 dollars for that test, ofc financed by my billionaire NRI unkils

thats good, i had blue eyes when i was young as well. it's our duty to protect "good genes" of our people/race. because without them we are nothing.

brahmins alone are just 3% to 4% of total Indian population while our contribution in almost every field is 30% to 60%, i wonder why...
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Old December 15th, 2016, 12:31 PM   #56

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
We do not have one single evidence for a chariot till Mauryan times
I believe you are looking for an archaeological proof of chariots. Then let me remind you that both Mature Harappan (2600-1900 BC) and Northern Black Polished Ware Culture (700-200 BC) were urbanized cultures. There are very high chances of finding an artifact from urbanized culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
Yes, I do know the difference between a vyadha and a Kshatriya. You should know that the symbol that I posted "does not" tell you anything about whether he was a vyadha or Kshatriya. All it tells you is that the bow and arrow "were" used.
That is what I posted earlier that definitely there were some tools. Humans were using bows and arrows for hunting from the Stone Age. Very scarcity of weapons clearly indicates the absence of "Kshatriya" culture. Well, just from one symbol of man carrying bow and arrow if we assume they had huge armies is just absurd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
Yes, certainly traders needed Gods ... I am doubtful if anybody would have a specific hymn like "Let the travel to XYZ be successful".
Thanks for accepting that prayers by traders were not anything illogical.

Now I just like to point towards 3.33, a hymn dedicated to Indra in Rig Veda where they are specifically mentioning the chariots crossing Beas and Sutlej. And Rig Veda do mentioned a vast knowledge of geography of Vedic people and they also mentioned some people with whom they interacted. So, I am not doubtful, as hymns do mentioned places and people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
There are many hymns in Rig Veda that talk about the YajamAna praying for riches, without any necessity of mentioning the specific place where the trade is happening. Further, the dana stutis, and other riks that talk about Kings, do talk about some places, but that is incidental.
Can we get some hymns that show the devotion of the trading class. Like their aspirations and their expectations from their deities. Very thankful if you share this. And hope I get a reply on this point..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
Some of the riks that talk about stealing cows are very symbolic. Perhaps you haven't given enough thought on those riks. See the Aryan invasion theory or contra thread where I have posted a few riks that have explicit mention of regional flora and fauna.
Well, I am from the school that firmly believes that the major corpus of Rig Veda was composed on the land of Sapta Sindhu. I think the disagreement here is When ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatreya
Again, having said that Harappans were Vedic does not mean they had to be Rig Vedic people. For all we know, it is possible that Rig Veda happened much earlier. It seems to me so far that is indeed the case.
And it is again absurd to assume that Rig Veda was composed in Stone Age (much earlier than Harappans) and later Vedas were composed in Iron Age and these Vedic people were completely silent for thousand of years during the Bronze Age, usually counted as a golden age by the archaeologists. Also earliest records of war chariots are dated to around 2000 BC, so we can sensibly reject this pre-2000 BC Rig Veda theory on the archaeological grounds. On the basis of the continuity of Vedic tradition also we can reject this theory of 1000 year gap.
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Old December 16th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #57

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thats good, i had blue eyes when i was young as well. it's our duty to protect "good genes" of our people/race. because without them we are nothing.
What makes blue pupils good and black pupils bad? I would not go with that. That is a racial comment. Black is beautiful.

Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 16th, 2016 at 01:28 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2016, 01:26 AM   #58

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The two forces met at 20 stadia, or 2 miles, from the place of crossing, or about two miles to the north-east of Mong. Here the chariots proved useless on the wet and slippery clay, and were nearly all captured.
See here. Chariots were not useful in Porus' army against Alexander's army. They got down bogged in mud just as cars get bogged down today on village roads. They become a liability. They may have had their uses in dry hard land. That is why chariots were not popular in India. Cavalry, of course, was freely used.
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Old December 16th, 2016, 02:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
What makes blue pupils good and black pupils bad? I would not go with that. That is a racial comment. Black is beautiful.

Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
Light coloured eyes is a recessive trend.
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Old December 16th, 2016, 07:27 AM   #60

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? Phoenician merchants colony in harappa!


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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
That is the most precise view that we can give regarding, the merchant community from the Harappan cities
Also, the agricultural community from Harappans very like ended up getting the prestigious title of Yadava (originally Ahir) in the Indian society. Now the Dalits, very likely comes from the lowest strata of the Harappan society Harappans.
In Harrapa there were an Agricultural Community And two kind of Merchant communities-

1--Travel by bullock- cart to Various trading places to trade by land they were locals

2- Sea Merchants--they were foreign in origin but their identity of is not fully yet confirmed ?Abira--/Apiru-?Habiru based on linguistic interpretation and the Land of Ophir [ Hebrew Bible]
Some believe they were Phoenicians [ as called by Greeks]---Which Rig Veda identify as "Pani" Merchants more than 20 times I was told! They also known as Kan'anna or kenachnu--Probably known as Canaanites!

I Hope these "Leads" may help you to find out more as the letters are not fully deciphered fully yet to everyone satisfaction !
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