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Old December 28th, 2016, 08:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
Can we be sure the two were different cultures?
Could they be the same heritage as the Harappans, but with different pottery styles in different places, and changing at different times?
Good question.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 09:23 PM   #12

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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
Good question.
obviously the lack of a written record complicates a deeper understanding of the exact relationship.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 10:42 PM   #13

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax View Post
Can we be sure the two were different cultures?
Could they be the same heritage as the Harappans, but with different pottery styles in different places, and changing at different times?
I don't think we can (I am not a historian). Perhaps just regional differences as at many places they intermingle.
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Old December 29th, 2016, 10:15 AM   #14

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Fairfax
Can we be sure the two were different cultures?
Could they be the same heritage as the Harappans, but with different pottery styles in different places, and changing at different times?
Thanks for asking.

Here is what some archaeologists are saying:

Uesugi says:
"PGW made its appearance in the Upper Ganges Valley (more precisely in Punjab and North Haryana as established by Joshi), where there was still a faint tradition of Late Harappan Culture. The appearance of Painted Grey Ware was totally a new cultural trait in this region without any clear relationship with the Late Harappan Culture. In this sense we should suppose an arrival of a new different cultural group for the emergence of the PGW. However, it is worthwhile mentioning that had a similar composition of forms consisting of bowl and dish with the BRW that spread over the Middle Ganges Valley. This suggests that PGW people and BRW people had an interactive relationship developing mutually for the creation of similar composition of forms. This point is quite important because as early as the later part of second millennium BC at least two cultural groups represented by their own fine-wares came into coexistence in north India with the interactive relationship possibly would have been a stimulus to teh social change in north India subsequently." (from Re-evalauation of the pottery sequence in north India during the first millenium BC by Akinori Uesugi)

Suraj Bhan says:
"I. The archaeological investigations carried out in northern India and Pakistan over the last five decades or so have brought to light two distinct cultural patterns between c. 3000- 600 BC The first cultural cycle is marked by the advent of agro-pastoral communities in the Indus plains from north Baluchistan around 3000 BC The culture is distinguished by the use of Hakra ware and dwelling pits... (then he talks about Early Harappan Cultures, Mature Harappan, Late Harappan Cultures, Ochre Coloured Pottery culture; and their interaction with the cultures in eastern Rajasthan, Central Indian Plateau and Northern Deccan.)
II. The second major cycle of cultural movement of agro-pastoral tribes is discovered by excavations in the Swat, Dir and Chitral valleys of North West Frontier Province, in the Gomal valley, in Bolan Valley at Pirak and at Sarai Khola near Taxila to the east of the Indus around 1600 B.C. (then he talks about the cultures that used 'grey ware' like Pirak Culture, Gandhara Grave Culture and Painted Grey Ware culture)" (from North Indian Proto-history and Vedic Aryans by Suraj Bhan)

And in the words of famous archaeologist AH Dani : "Could we, therefore, not see the spread of this culture (Painted Grey Ware) as a result of the second invasion (or migration) from the West (Gandhara Grave Culture)"

Note:- Comments in parentheses are added by me to save the space or adding more clarification
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Old January 4th, 2017, 03:44 PM   #15

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OK, welcome after 2017 !

How can we connect the archaeological data (as shown in OP) with the texts partly or fully written in that period...

For that we will first see the geographical data obtained from these texts with the help of these maps, we will discuss them in detail in the next posts:

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:15 PM   #16

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I am a Kamboja discent (if we go by Gotras). I see that Sarasvati is wrongly placed in the last map. It was Argandhab flowing near Kandhar.

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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:30 PM   #17

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I am a Kamboja discent (if we go by Gotras). I see that Sarasvati is wrongly placed in the last map. It was Argandhab flowing near Kandhar.
So, how Aupmanyavas are placed under Pancha-Gauda - Pancha-Dravida ? Are they Gauda-Brahmins, Saraswat-Brahmins or Kanaujia-Brahmin, or different from them ?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 01:52 AM   #18

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Our caste is Kashmiri brahmins - pandits - Sarasvatas, sure. We have not been addressed as Gauda brahmins.
Wikipedia lists us as "Upamanyu: Vashista, Aindrapramada, Bhadravasavya"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravaras#Gotra_Pravara

I do not belong to any Sutra or Shakha. If my family belonged to any, my grandpa never told me about it. I have charted out my own way, I am sort of a free-lance artist now.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; January 5th, 2017 at 02:10 AM.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 06:28 AM   #19

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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Painted Grey Ware was an Iron Age culture that existed from 1200 BC - 600 BC. It was mainly spread over what we now call Harayana and Uttar Pradesh in India.B.B. Lal identified this with Later Vedic Period and Mahabharata. Here in this thread we will try to connect the dots between archaeological data with textual data that we get from Later Vedic Period and Mahabharata.
THE PROBLEM OF THE MAHĀBHĀRATA HISTORICITY BY PROF. B.B. LAL

There are Two extremely divergent views about the Historicity of the Mahabharata. To the faithful, everything mentioned in the Text is TRUE TO THE VERY LETTER --To some others, it is a mere FIGMENT OFIMAGINATION The reason for such a confusion lies in the very nature of the epic itself. Say, for example, if Krishna was a Historical figure, he is unlikely to have been later than Buddha who lived in 6th -5th centuries BCE!.

************[ NB-- "Nothing happens in a vacuum" ---All the famous Epic poems all over the world have an underlying narrative with a subliminal message is couched with some "Historical Truths" in the context of time and space which is not very obvious -- unless it is deciphered or deconstructed with an astute and penetrating sagacity otherwise it may be very Misleading !
It had been well known rightly or wrongly that the "Part of Bhagavat Gita" of "Mahabharatha epic" was interpolated around 4 CE after the Death of Buddha and the advent of Classic Sanskritic language and literature !
Both Buddha and Krishna who were supposed to have had belonged to Kasthuria caste of warriors who were later Made "Avatars of Lord Vishnu" which led to Vaishnavism Sect at the turn of the classic era and followed by Bhakti Movements all over India Especially in the South ! I also gather in fairness the same privilege was offered to Guru Nak of Sikhism was offered to make him also the last Avatar of Lord Vishnu but defiantly refused Sikh religious leaders - By Niroshan ]***************

On the other hand, parts of the text may be as late as the 4th Cent. CE, since it refers not only to the Greeks and Romans but also to the Huns – what an Yawning gap between the event and the text! Secondly, the Mahabharata, as available now, comprises over 100,000 verses, but earlier it consisted of 24,000 verses and called the Bharata. Still earlier, it had only 8,000 verses, called the Jaya. Thus, what indeed is the original can’t be determined.
Thirdly, let it not be forgotten that the Mahabharata was not meant to be a History book. It is an epic (Prabandha- kavya) and the poet enjoyed absolute liberty to let his imagination fly high. Thus, one cannot question his use of superlatives while describing the Palaces or the "Strength of the Armies "on the battlefield or the "Supernatural weapons" used by them.
MY APPROACH
As an archaeologist, I thought that a way to ascertain the truth might be to explore and excavate sites associated with the Mahabharata story and find out what these have to say in the matter. In this context, a very important point to note is that all the Mahabharata sites, luckily, continue to bear the same names even today as they did in antiquity, e.g. Hastinapura, Mathura, Kurukshetra, etc.
HASTINAPURA– THE KEY SITE
Way back, in 1951-52, I conducted Excavations at the key site of Hastinapura, the capital of the Kauravas, located on the right bank of the Ganga, in Meerut Dist, Uttar Pradesh, some 60 miles north-east of Delhi. The results were very startling, as we shall see from the slides that follow.
CLAIMS OF THE PGW CULTURE
At this point, it needs to be emphasized that it is the Painted Grey Ware Culture which is the lowest common denominator at all the sites associated with the Mahabharata story referred to earlier and shown on the map. In fact, even sites associated with the story through verbal tradition have yielded remains of the Painted Grey Ware Culture.
ARCHAEOLOGY vis-à-vis THE TEXTS!
In the context of the Archaeological evidence of a Flood having destroyed Hastinapura, the texts aver: Gangayapahrite Tsmin Nagare Nagasahavaye Tyaktva Nichaksur nagaram Kausambyam sa nivatsyati i.e. ‘When the city of Nagasahvya (Hastinapura) is carried away by the Ganga, Nichakshu (the then ruler) will abandon it and dwell in Kausambi.And the archaeological evidence corroborates it.
CHRONOLOGICAL HORIZON OF MAHABHARATA WAR!
We now come to the most crucial issue, viz. the probable date of the Mahabharata War. As mentioned in the texts, it was during the time of Nichkshu that the capital was shifted from Hastinapura to Kausambi. The texts further tell us that Nichakshu was 5th ruler in succession from Parikshit who ascended the throne after the War and amongst the rulers at Kausambi Udayana was 19th from Nichakshu. Hence Udayana was the 24th ruler after the War. Further, it is well known that Udayana was contemporary of Buddha who passed away in 487 BCE. Thus, in broad figures, Udayana may have ruled around 500 BCE. The next question is: What was the total duration of the reigns of these 24 rulers? If we round off the 13.55 years average per ruler to 14 years or even extend it to, say, 15, the date of the War would work out as follows 24 (rulers) x 15 years (average reign per ruler) = 360 years. If we add this number, 360, to 500 BCE, when Udayana was ruling, we arrive at the date of 860 BCE for the War.
This is not to say that the War took place exactly in 860 BCE. It is a figure arrived at from a combined evidence of archaeology and literature. We may further round it off to circa 900 BCE, but perhaps no more! I would be failing in my duty if I did not mention dates assigned by other scholars to the War: 1424 BCE(K.P. Jayaswal); 1400(A.S.Altekar); 950BCE (F.E. Pargiter); 900BCE. (H.C.Raychaudhury).
Chronological Horizon (contd.)....... I have commented on these dates in my various papers and would not like to repeat the same here. But I would certainly like to say a few words about 3102 BCE, based on a lonely inscription at Aihole dated to Saka year 556 i.e. 634-35 CE. This date, however, seems to be supported by astronomical data in the Mahabharata, as interpreted by Prof. Narhar Acharya. My difficulty in accepting this date is that around 3102 BCE (nor even for another 1000 years to come) none of the sites associated with the Mahabharata story was in existence – be it Hastinapura or Indraprastha or Mathura, as established by the excavations at these sites. How can then we enact the Mahabharata story without these sites having been there? Can we?
.
Chronological Horizon (contd.).....There is yet another way of looking at the figure 3102 BCE. As seen earlier, there were 24 rulers from Parikshit, who ascended the throne after the War, to Udayana who ruled around 500 BCE. This gives an average of 108 years per ruler: 3102 - 500 = 2602, divided by 24 = 108.Nowhere in the entire world has there been such an average per ruler. Has there to be a special case for India ? Let the learned audience think and decide!

Thank you very much for your patient hearing!.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:10 AM   #20

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
Our caste is Kashmiri brahmins - pandits - Sarasvatas, sure. We have not been addressed as Gauda brahmins.
Wikipedia lists us as "Upamanyu: Vashista, Aindrapramada, Bhadravasavya"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravaras#Gotra_Pravara

I do not belong to any Sutra or Shakha. If my family belonged to any, my grandpa never told me about it. I have charted out my own way, I am sort of a free-lance artist now.
How do you know Saraswats have a Kamboja origin. Saraswati is placed correctly between Shutudri and Yamuna.
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