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Old January 6th, 2017, 09:34 AM   #31

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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Very true, I would say the most of the characters in these epics are mythological. But that doesn't mean we cannot get anything from these texts. Hastinapur, Indraprastha, Mathura and Ahichhatra existed. Kurus and Panchalas existed. And so does existed their folklore...

P.S. Though I consider that Krishna and Arjuna came as a part of Kuru-Panchala folklore, rather than coming from Harappan tradition.
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
Rama and Krishna need not be historical personages. They are indigenous regional Gods (now accepted by all Hindus) and folk heroes. The stories are older than Aryan advent into India. Aryans made them into Aryans in the stories. A common Hindu is least bothered about that. What deceptions and subterfuges are you talking about? Trying to be 'conspiracy theorist'?
I favour the idea that they were historical individuals who were aggressively added to. I look at similar historical characters from history like Richard the Lionheart or Prithviraj Chauhan, who have had significant mythologizing around them over the years. I believe a similar process took place with the individuals in the narratives, though yes, compounding of characters and narratives with local deities/traditions cannot be ruled out and likely happened extensively. The Krishna character as a child is so different in construction to the adult (uber demigod as a child to crafty background politician as an adult) that it might even have originated as two different characters, certainly IMO representing two different traditions of compounding.

But I nonetheless think that the individuals were originally real people (atleast the main characters). The story of the Mahabharata is a complex series of political events, and the story contains enough irrelevant avenues and minor stories and enough complexity that it speaks to me as a story that had its foundation in real life. In contrast, I'm more willing to believe that the Ramayana is more likely to be fictional, given the greater linearity of the narrative.

As a side note, I don't disparage those who believe that the Mahabahrata or Ramayana is fully historical. The search for the historical reality of the narrative has helped drive a lot of scholarship especially in archaeology and history. This has in turn yielded significant information which has improved our knowledge and understanding of the far past. The quest for knowledge is often driven by romantic notions underlying the scholarly research. That romantic idealism is critical to developing academic passion, which is why I think its important to allow for belief systems even if there is a lack of proof.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #32

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Originally Posted by tornada
But I nonetheless think that the individuals were originally real people (atleast the main characters). The story of the Mahabharata is a complex series of political events, and the story contains enough irrelevant avenues and minor stories and enough complexity that it speaks to me as a story that had its foundation in real life. In contrast, I'm more willing to believe that the Ramayana is more likely to be fictional, given the greater linearity of the narrative.
And IMO the story of Lord Krishna is as linear as the story of Lord Rama. The only difference is the story of Krishna is fitted into the complex politics of Mahabharata.

Also, when we compare these epics, we have to remember that though Ramayana is the journey of Sri Rama but Mahabharata is not the journey of Sri Krishna, rather the journey of Kurus, their rise and their fall.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 09:47 PM   #33

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They are Indigenous Regional Gods in the ancient India? Wow ! In What Regions of India please ?? .. I have to find a Harappan man ..
Rama for Kosala region, Krishna for two, Gopala of the Vraja and Krishna of the Saurashtra. Perhaps Krishna is a composite of the two. OK, find your Harappan man. Probably he was not a Ram and Krishna worshiper, but worshiped Shiva and Durga.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; January 6th, 2017 at 11:35 PM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:58 AM   #34

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Down the memory lane---this is my story and this is my song


@Aupmanyav

*Joined: Sep 2015
26th of Nov205 I am not a historian or have any interest in History

27th Non 2015---Originally Posted by Civfanatic
Uh, this forum might not be the best place for you, in that case.

27th Nov 2015 "THIS IS MY STORY AND THIS IS MY SONG"
Umm... Unfortunately I always find my self in the wrong places That the way my Story if not my History Goes

I tripped and fell in this Historic Forum by sheer accident- I never ever thought in my wildest dream that I will last so long as a member ---It was truly a Learning Curve in "Indian History and Religions" which I was Not Really Interested with my heart and soul if not only superficially!
However I really enjoyed it . It was a great fun and occasionally with pun ! But I always made sure that I always speak the truth which I strongly believe in such a way to not to hurt others sensitivities or ridicule others mistakes due to their momentary lapses of their memory or due to minor paucity of their historical knowledge!
I knew You , mnsr and only very few other members in this Forum are of Patriotic Indians with Honesty and Integrity who would not hesitate to speak the Truth without any bias in my opinion !
Yesterday I knew straightaway that you've made a "memory lapse due confusion" at the heat of the moment and wrote not really to mislead or manipulate the Historical facts .But I think I was bit harsh on my reply for which I tender my sincere apologies.
Honestly I don't Believe in Organised Religions [ Not spirituality] or "History" as we all taught[ Including the Media of course ]----They were, more often than not[ in my opinion] used by as mind controlling and manipulating tools to advance the agenda of the Elite Politicians!
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Old January 7th, 2017, 01:38 AM   #35

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Niroshan, these stories are not made by politicians. They are made by grandmas and grandpas, that is from where I got it before I opened any scripture. These are made by street performers and singers. The purpose of these stories is to propel people towards good deeds, maintain the peace of the society. They don't ask one to worship any God or Goddess. These are the beacons of (5 thousand year old) heritage and tradition from where we learn how to live.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 07:13 PM   #36

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OK. Now I will share one more map related to the archaeology of Painted Grey Ware culture. As we know that hundreds of sites related PGW culture have been discovered.
But there is very interesting pattern that these sites can be seen as existing in 'clusters'. As as reported by Singh et al in their paper 'Painted Grey Ware Settlements': "Each cluster must have had a nodal centre with its own network of local support system. Nodal centre tends to grow larger in size while other smaller settlements become part of the support system."

They have identified such sixteen clusters as shown in the below figure, and in the upcoming posts we will try to identify these clusters with the help of maps shared in post-15

Click the image to open in full size.

But before identifying the individual 'clusters', lets us see the political setup of that age:

At very early stage: Aryans were organised into tribes rather than kingdoms. The chief of a tribe was called a rajan. The autonomy of the rajan was restricted by the tribal councils called sabha and samiti. The two bodies were, in part, responsible for the governance of the tribe. The rajan could not accede to the throne without their approval. The main responsibility of the rajan was to protect the tribe. He was aided by purohita (chief priest) who performs ceremonies and spells for success in war and prosperity in peace

Later: The tribes consolidated into small kingdoms, which had a capital and a rudimentary administrative system. The importance and position of the rajan enhanced and many new powers were exercised by them. The rajan was seen as the custodian of social order and the protector of rashtra (polity), his importance and position enhanced and many new powers were exercised by him. Sabha-samiti (tribal councils) were still present, but their influence was declining with the increasing power of the king. The position of the king started becoming hereditary. To aid in governing these new states purohitas developed the new rituals to strengthen the emerging social hierarchy.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 07:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
OK. Now I will share one more map related to the archaeology of Painted Grey Ware culture. As we know that hundreds of sites related PGW culture have been discovered.
But there is very interesting pattern that these sites can be seen as existing in 'clusters'. As as reported by Singh et al in their paper 'Painted Grey Ware Settlements': "Each cluster must have had a nodal centre with its own network of local support system. Nodal centre tends to grow larger in size while other smaller settlements become part of the support system."

They have identified such sixteen clusters as shown in the below figure, and in the upcoming posts we will try to identify these clusters with the help of maps shared in post-15

Click the image to open in full size.

But before identifying the individual 'clusters', lets us see the political setup of that age:

At very early stage: Aryans were organised into tribes rather than kingdoms. The chief of a tribe was called a rajan. The autonomy of the rajan was restricted by the tribal councils called sabha and samiti. The two bodies were, in part, responsible for the governance of the tribe. The rajan could not accede to the throne without their approval. The main responsibility of the rajan was to protect the tribe. He was aided by purohita (chief priest) who performs ceremonies and spells for success in war and prosperity in peace

Later: The tribes consolidated into small kingdoms, which had a capital and a rudimentary administrative system. The importance and position of the rajan enhanced and many new powers were exercised by them. The rajan was seen as the custodian of social order and the protector of rashtra (polity), his importance and position enhanced and many new powers were exercised by him. Sabha-samiti (tribal councils) were still present, but their influence was declining with the increasing power of the king. The position of the king started becoming hereditary. To aid in governing these new states purohitas developed the new rituals to strengthen the emerging social hierarchy.
What is the evidence of Sabhas and Samiti for Rajan? What is the original source?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:06 PM   #38

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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
What is the evidence of Sabhas and Samiti for Rajan? What is the original source?
Vedic Texts.

As in Shatapatha Brahmana (4.1.4.1-6), rajan prays "May the samiti and the sabha, the two daughters of Prajapati, concurrently aid me".

=> For more details you can refer 'A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India' by Upinder Singh.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 07:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Vedic Texts.

As in Shatapatha Brahmana (4.1.4.1-6), rajan prays "May the samiti and the sabha, the two daughters of Prajapati, concurrently aid me".

=> For more details you can refer 'A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India' by Upinder Singh.
Thank you.
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Old March 18th, 2017, 12:38 AM   #40

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After a long time on my thread

Sixteen clusters identified by archaeologists in the Painted Grey Ware Culture :-

1. Seven main Clusters in the Ganga Yamuna Plain:
Saharanpur
Bijnor
Pauri Garhwal
Meerut
Kanpur
Etah
Bulandshahr

II. Three clusters are along the Sarasvati:
Kurukshetra
Jind-Hissar
Anupgarh

III. Two clusters are along the Satluj:
Ludhiana
Chandigarh

IV. Two clusters are along the Banganga:
Mathura-Bharatpur
Jaipur

V. One cluster are along the Yamuna:
Delhi

VI. One cluster are along the Deoha:
Bareilly

Now some historicity of these clusters :-

I. Saharanpur, Bijnor and Pauri Garhwal clusters - Related to Ushinaras with the capital Ushinaragiri.
II. Meerut and Delhi clusters - Related to Kurus with the capitals Hastinapura and Indraprastha.
III. Kanpur, Etah and Bareilly clusters - related to Panchalas with the capitals Kampilya, Piloshana and Adhichhatra.
IV. Mathura-Bharatpur Cluster - related to Surasenas with the capital at Mathura.
V. Jaipur Cluster - related to Matsyas with the capital Viratanagar.
VI. Bulandshahr Cluster - related to Ahivarnas
VII. Jind-Hissar Cluster - related to Agreyas
VIII. Anupgarh Cluster - related to Yaudheyas

IX. Kurukshetra, Ludhiana and Chandigarh clusters - from Early PGW culture. Related to the migration of Vedic people in the region and their first settlements.

Lastly the map of sixteen clusters of the Painted Grey Ware culture :-
Click the image to open in full size.
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