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Old December 26th, 2016, 08:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
Should be in a separate topic. They are born smarter. Religion, yes - 'We are Muslims therefore will join Pakistan'. That is what they say. Economy - Grants from Indian government, tourism, apples. Parasite - better keep quite. They could change if they so desire. If they don't, that too is OK with us.
If it should be in a separate topic, why was the statement made this thread? I ask as a matter of raising awareness. But I am just a stupid female from the United States where a fundamental belief is that we all born equal. What happens between birth and adulthood, makes us different, but are all equal under the law. It doesn't matter if we are born Christian, Muslim or Hindu. We are not born smarter or more privileged. Is that a fundamentally different belief or something all humans can agree is true?

What makes Hindus and Muslims two different Nations in the east, and all one nation in the west?
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Old December 26th, 2016, 08:10 AM   #42
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Why do Kashmiris want independence?
Because in recent months Indian army have killed hundreds and blinded thousands of Kashmiri protestors with pellet bullets. And the fact that they were promised referendum by Indian PM Nehru back then when British left. Maybe they don't want independence but we will never find out without referendum.

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With electricity industry is made possible, but what else is available to develop industry?
India have not developed any industry there, they are mostly dependent on Delhi for budget.

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Why does Azad Kashmir have the least poverty?
Remittances.

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Which political organization is most capable of preventing a tyrant from committing atrocities? Which is most capable of economic development?
I don't know.

Last edited by janjumanju123; December 26th, 2016 at 08:15 AM.
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Old December 26th, 2016, 08:35 AM   #43
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The problem in Kashmir that started in 1989 is the direct consequences of spillover of Afghan war across the region when Pakistan diverted the Afghan Jihadi infrastructure against India. Also, other fact is the problem is confined to Kashmir valley only, you will never heard of violence or protests even in Muslim majority towns of Jammu and Ladakh.
Thank you. I have been asked to not discuss Kashmir because it is off topic, but from you say it is on topic because the problem is not between all Muslims and Hindus, but a particular pocket of agitation, right? Then it must be asked what is different here? Why these people and not all others?

I understand at least part of the problem is the agreement that only Muslims can buy property in this area, and this prevents important social interaction from happening, right? Now, this is not exactly a Muslim and Hindu problem, but a political one, right?

In the US we have such territories where only members of a tribe have land rights or members of a particular religion live. The Amish are such a religious group and they live very differently from all the rest of us. Somehow it is possible for this to happen without it being a problem. But that is not the case if the religious group is accumulating weapons. A religious group that was accumulating weapons in Waco Texas, and was put under siege by US military force. That military action took a lot of lives, and the life the leader, and we have not heard of them since.

It is interesting to think about such things when thinking of the situation in India. What can be tolerated and what can not be tolerated? Where is the line between religion and politics?
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Old December 26th, 2016, 08:45 AM   #44

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Jinnah was looking to protect minority north indian muslims of UP/Bihar/Gujarat (he's Gujarati remember)/Harayana. He was ready to accept the deal if Nehru didn't back out. I'm glad Nehru backed out because muslim punjabis formed secular party unionts with sikhs to protect rights of landholding biraderis in punjab. While secular bacha khan from KPK wanted to remain part of India.

Current day Pak native sons of soils were living in their own buble away from dangers of hindutvas butchers. But what really changed and made unionts members join Jinnah muslim league was probably Kolkotta hindu-muslim riots sponsored by Gandhi/Nehru. Apart from that only native who I can think of who warned our ancestors back then was Chaudhry Rehmat Ali, god bless his soul. ameen Some say even Iqbal at most wanted autonomy with in India.
Direct Action Day was planned by Jinnah that led to riots and widespread killings in Calcutta as the Muslim League was in seventh Sky after winning provincial election in Bengal. This was followed by massacre of Hindus in Noakhali by Muslim League.

Muslim rights? how can a population who are mere 25% of the population wants to seek 1-1 parity with 75% of the population. It happened nowhere in the world. parity is based on one man one vote.
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Old December 26th, 2016, 08:47 AM   #45

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Now, this is not exactly a Muslim and Hindu problem, but a political one, right?

It is interesting to think about such things when thinking of the situation in India. What can be tolerated and what can not be tolerated? Where is the line between religion and politics?
Yes, this is a political problem. When the Pakistani army and muslim 'kabailies' (ruffins and tribals instigated by Pakistan army with promise to loot and rape) from Pakistan were attacking Kashmir, the princely government of Kashmir and their elected representatives requested India for help. India said that unless they do not sign the letter of accession, India will not help them. The elected representatives asked for special treatment for Kashmir, to which the Indian government agreed. We have not renegaded the agreement (though we can do that easily, but India is not known for renegading its obligations). Now technically, the Kashmiris have no right to ask for secession.

There is no line. There is no politics without religion in India.
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Muslim rights? how can a population who are mere 25% of the population wants to seek 1-1 parity with 75% of the population. It happened nowhere in the world. parity is based on one man one vote.
Muslims have all the civil rights in India that a Hindu has. Of course, criminal law is not based on Shariah, the Muslim law.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; December 26th, 2016 at 08:49 AM.
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Old December 26th, 2016, 09:01 AM   #46
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Because in recent months Indian army have killed hundreds and blinded thousands of Kashmiri protestors with pellet bullets. And the fact that they were promised referendum by Indian PM Nehru back then when British left. Maybe they don't want independence but we will never find out without referendum.



India have not developed any industry there, they are mostly dependent on Delhi for budget.



Remittances.



I don't know.
Please give me a link to what you mentioned in the first statement. I don't think that is about being Hindu or Muslim, and such things can not be resolved unless they are correctly identified. Does India go throughout the whole of the region killing and blinding all Muslims? What caused India authority to take that action? Is this like Waco, Texas where a religious group appeared to be a growing threat, or like the Amish community that is very different but no threat?
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Old December 26th, 2016, 09:05 AM   #47
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Because in recent months Indian army have killed hundreds and blinded thousands of Kashmiri protestors with pellet bullets. And the fact that they were promised referendum by Indian PM Nehru back then when British left. Maybe they don't want independence but we will never find out without referendum.
Dear Janjumanju,

Since you are in living in Pakistan the full picture of Kashmir Valley is not clear because it gets created thru filtered reports.

It may be difficult for you to believe, but the fact is that ISI of Pakistan has been trying to create divisive tendencies in Kashmir Valley by some sort of a jihadist movement. This is happening from 1989 onwards because the machinery created for Afghanistan resistance was jobless once Soviets withdrew in 1988.

All terrorism in Kashmir Valley is inspired and funded by terrorists across the border.

Now-a-days the terrorist elements employ and pay a wage to local youths - yes you read it right - pay a wage of about Rs 500 per day, and ask them to throw stones etc at police. Terrorists incentivize the local youth to do this when they themselves are hiding behind in safe places and their own brothers, sisters, children are getting best of education elsewhere in India or abroad.

Since police does not shoot to kill in cases of stone pelting, to quell such gatherings police had used pellet guns (small arms which do not kill) to disperse the small mobs, due to which some young people did get injured. But these people who got injured are paid employees of terrorist elements and have only themselves to blame. They chose get into danger by taking stone-pelting for wages from terrorists and because they did not withdraw after warning by police.

As regards referendum, it was Nehru who in 1947/1948 referred the Kashmir issue to UNO to prevent Pakistan from taking Kashmir by military force even though the king (and the leader of local political party - Shiekh Abdulla) has agreed to join India. As per UN Resolution on the subject, Pakistan, which was the belligerent nation, had to withdraw its Military to pre-conflict area. However, Pakistan did not meet this pre-condition because of which opportunity for referendum was lost forever.

Still Kashmir Valley (including Sri Nagar) had been a peaceful and happy place for 43 years from 1947 till about 1990 because it was the centre where most of Hindi and many other Indian films were shot. It was the most popular tourist destination in India. However, terrorists spoiled it all in their quest for acquiring power by force rather than stand in elections and seek vote. They killed many Hindus & Sikhs due to which almost a million of them were forced to migrate.

Now the latest terrorists are doing is burning schools - more than 45 have been burned down in current year.

Rajeev

PS: Jammu & Kashmir is a large area and the problem is in a small part only - the Kashmir Valley. This point is often missed.

Last edited by Rajeev; December 26th, 2016 at 09:19 AM.
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Old December 26th, 2016, 09:11 AM   #48

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There is no line. There is no politics without religion in India.Muslims have all the civil rights in India that a Hindu has. Of course, criminal law is not based on Shariah, the Muslim law.
Political rights and equality are based on universal adult suffrage aka one man one vote. If Hindus are 25% of the population, would they ask for parity with the Muslim majority and they never asked for it in Punjab, Sindh or Bengal.
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Old December 26th, 2016, 09:11 AM   #49
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Please give me a link to what you mentioned in the first statement. I don't think that is about being Hindu or Muslim, and such things can not be resolved unless they are correctly identified. Does India go throughout the whole of the region killing and blinding all Muslims? What caused India authority to take that action? Is this like Waco, Texas where a religious group appeared to be a growing threat, or like the Amish community that is very different but no threat?
More like Amish community. Kashmiris are not like ISIS otherwise whole India will bleed with bomb blasts every day. Few kashmiri militants at most target Indian army posts with in Indian held Kashmir. Those getting killed or blinded are protesters demanding referendum as promised by first Indian PM when British left in 1947.


10,000 Kashmiri youth have been arrested during the last 5 months | Baaghi TV Pakistan
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Old December 26th, 2016, 09:16 AM   #50
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Dear Janjumanju,

Since you are in living in Pakistan the full picture of Kashmir Valley is not clear because it gets created thru filtered reports.

It may be difficult for you to believe, but the fact is that ISI of Pakistan has been trying to create divisive tendencies in Kashmir Valley by some sort of a jihadist movement. This is happening from 1989 onwards because the machinery created for Afghanistan resistance was jobless once Soviets withdrew in 1988.

All terrorism in Kashmir Valley is inspired and funded by terrorists across the border.

Now-a-days the terrorist elements employ and pay a wage to local youths - yes you read it right - pay a wage of about Rs 500 per day, and ask them to throw stones etc at police. Terrorists incentivize the local youth to do this when they themselves are hiding behind in safe places and their own brothers, sisters, children are getting best of education elsewhere in India or abroad.

Since police does not shoot to kill in cases of stone pelting, to quell such gatherings police had used small arms to disperse the small mobs, due to which some young people did get injured. But these people who got injured are paid employees of terrorist elements and chose get into danger because knowingly they dido not withdraw after warning by police.

As regards referendum, it was Nehru who in 1947/1948 referred the Kashmir issue to UNO to prevent Pakistan from taking Kashmir by military force even though the king (and the leader of local political party - Shiekh Abdulla) has agreed to join India. As per UN Resolution on the issue, Pakistan, which was the belligerent nation, had to withdraw its Military to pre-conflict area. However, Pakistan did not meet the pre-condition because of which opportunity for referendum was lost forever.

Still Kashmir was a peaceful and happy place till about 1990 because it was the centre where most of Hindi and other films were shot. It was the biggest tourist centre in India. However, terrorists spoiled it all in their quest for acquiring power by force rather than stand in elctions and seek vote.

Rajeev
ISI didn't made Indian government rig Kashmiri election in 1989 which triggered insurgency. They may have supported them like Indians supported Mukhtibani of Bangladesh.

Pakistan is ready for referendum since 1948 in Azad Kashmir and Gilget if India also do the same. But only under the watch of UN.
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