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Old January 9th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #51
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This thread seems to have predictably drifted off subject.

Here is a question - have any of you read the book by William Dalrymple "The Last Mogul"?

My knowledge of India is very sketchy but Dalrymple is very sympathetic to the Indian cause, lives in New Delhi (or did)and this book seems to deal with the tragedy of Zafar in superb detail.

For me the poor old Emperor, 80 plus years old, was a frightened, timid spectator, badgered by his favourite wife, 50 years his junior, who secretly communicated with the British to protect her son's chances of becoming Emperor, and on the other hand threatened by the mutineers.

There is a point where 52 Europeans, mostly women and children, are sheltering in the Palace under Zafar's protection. Zafar begs the Mutineers not to harm women and children but they are dragged out and slaughtered in front of him - to cries of "Now the British will never forgive you - You are now with us".

On the military front, the Mutineers had an exceptional chance of victory and with a real leader (which never happened) should have achieved this, IMO.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 05:53 AM   #52

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Dalrymple must have researched this minutely, but cannot deny that this was terribly cruel of the mutineers.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 06:47 AM   #53
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Dalrymple claims to have found extensive "new" Indian material and significantly Zafar's papers in Rangoon - most other books, according to him, have been written using only British data.

The book is very readable and I would recommend it.

Dalyrmple calls Nicholson, one of the British heroes, a psychopath and I think he is right but at the same time Nicholson (a huge, 6 foot 2 inch bear of a man and like so many "British" commanders, Protestant Irish) was undoubtedly an exceptionally brave and fine military leader.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #54

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6' 2" is not huge. Huge is something like Khali.
Billed height: 7 ft 1 in (2.16 m), Billed weight: 347 lb (157 kg)

Khali (Dalip Singh Rana) with his wife and other images.
Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:59 AM   #55

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatstreetwarrior View Post
bahadur shah was a joke. A shayari spouting hukka smoking washed up has been with more people in his harem than in his area of control. The last true ruler of India was indeed Peshwa Nanasaheb. Nanasaheb might indeed have just booted out Bahadur Shah once he dealt with the Brits. And yes Mizoram, and Nagaland were never parts of historical India. However, parts of Manipur were indeed under some level of Mughal control (Aurangzeb's brother was killed there under his pressure in Manipuri court).

I believe Manipur, Meghalaya (under Hindu Jaintias), Tripura and Auranchal minus Tawang were very much part of Indic culture.

Well if not for the British interruption, the Marathas would pretty much have kept the core of India with them. They would have easily finished off Awadh and the Nizam off. Plus with Polygar support they might have mounted a fresher offensive on Tipu as well. Remember Tipu indeed did lose to the Marathas and he always choose easy pickings with smaller fiefs in Kerala.

Despite losing in Panipat the Marathas survived. In my view the battle of Panipat did not end them as decisively as people feel. I think Marathas would have inter married with Rajputs and assimilated them. I do however feel that they would not have finished off Sikhs and Jats. Instead kept them as a buffer state against Afghans. I dont see Marathas defeating the Sikhs especially. So yes 70% core of India would have remained and maybe democracy could even have seeped in much faster under a Peshwai.
1857 was the last stand by the India's ruling class. I hardly see Mughals making any contribution in shaping Indian nationalism, otherwise Pakistan wouldn't have separated from India.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:00 AM   #56

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One of my Bangladeshi colleagues notified me that the British gave a military funeral to Tipu Sultan...a rare honor considering the area and time period.


When the British can show respect to Tipu Sultan it clearly shows how dignified and honorable Sultan was. And yet, in this world we still have those who harbor a century or more grudge against men like George Washington, Tipu Sultan or George III.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:05 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
6' 2" is not huge. Huge is something like Khali.
Billed height: 7 ft 1 in (2.16 m), Billed weight: 347 lb (157 kg)

Khali (Dalip Singh Rana) with his wife and other images.
Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.
The average British soldier in 1900 was 5 foot 4 inches tall - all is relative.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
One of my Bangladeshi colleagues notified me that the British gave a military funeral to Tipu Sultan...a rare honor considering the area and time period.


When the British can show respect to Tipu Sultan it clearly shows how dignified and honorable Sultan was. And yet, in this world we still have those who harbor a century or more grudge against men like George Washington, Tipu Sultan or George III.
Yes. Tipu Sultan, overall, was indeed a great man, and had great talents in statesmanship, administration and justice. He is certainly one of the greatest and most capable ruler of the eighteenth century world.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:27 AM   #59

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Persecution and forced conversion of Hindus and Christians and destruction of numerous Hindu Temples don't translate into him being a secular rule.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:32 AM   #60

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
One of my Bangladeshi colleagues notified me that the British gave a military funeral to Tipu Sultan...a rare honor considering the area and time period.


When the British can show respect to Tipu Sultan it clearly shows how dignified and honorable Sultan was. And yet, in this world we still have those who harbor a century or more grudge against men like George Washington, Tipu Sultan or George III.
Exactly, why would a Bangladeshi would care about mass murder and forced conversion of Hindus and Christians. They even see Bakhtiyar Khilji as their national hero who set on fire to the legendary Nalanda university and put the all books in its library on fire and beheaded all the Buddhist monks his troops encountered.
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