Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 10th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #11

Bullit's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Pakistan
Posts: 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
right brother, we have to take back our heritage stolen by some very non-ancient people. do you agree that Pakistan is incomplete without Eastern Punjab, Western Rajasthan and Gujarat ? are those people related to us genetically ? should we get back those regions ?
No. I frankly would question your sanity. Accepting the geographic reality of Indus and the weight of history this region confers does not in any way suggest what you say.

Frankly I am lost as to why you bring these states which are in India into the discussion. Eastern Afghanistan also falls within the Indus watershed. Your not suggesting integrating that region also?

And Indian Gujrat is not part of the Indus Basin. Only Indian Punjab is but then not every country can exist in perfect geographical unit. Some overlap is expected.

The need of the hour is accepting Indus region as the cradle of history that over time determined the birth of Pakistan. Not saying Islam is not also a factor - it is one in a whole mix of variables that creates the unique compound we call today Pakistan.

As Robert Kaplan's says -

“This entire middle region (Indus Region) — not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia — was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.”

And which further moved along a separate identity when Islam arrived -

" more important with the advent of Islam in the subcontinent: “Pakistan is the very geographical and national embodiment of all the Muslim invasions that have swept down into India throughout its history.”
Bullit is online now  
Remove Ads
Old January 10th, 2017, 05:19 PM   #12

Bullit's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Pakistan
Posts: 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomarRajput View Post
Brother, Pakistanis are Chamar type people with Middle Eastern invader blood. The people in those regions (especially the high castes) consider Pakistanis as next to dirt and mlecchas.
And if you don't stop with your continous referances to 'dirt' or 'baacha bazi' I am going to report you to the mods. I can throw far more than that at you and you know that as well. What do they say about people and glasshouses? I know full well the population profile of India and no doubt you do as well more than I.

So I ask you please drop it.
Bullit is online now  
Old January 10th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #13

Devdas's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: India
Posts: 2,628

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit View Post
10/10 Pakistan - a blessed land that gave birth to the Indus Civilization counting in the mighty Harrapa, Mohenjo Daro, Rehman Dheri and many other that were contemperory to Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilization. Indus River that still today nourishes all of Pakistan as it flows along the entire lenght of the country with life giving water without which Pakistan would revert to huge semi-arid desert.

The mighty Indus as significant and cradle of human civilization as Nile is what sustains Pakistan today. The modern state is the latest iteration of long dance of history that began millenia's ago.

To quote Robert Kaplan -

"Ganges-based state (India) to leapfrog an Indus-based state (Pakistan)"

"In a recent Foreign Policy article, Robert Kaplan argues that Pakistan’s problems—and its destiny—are rooted in its physical landscape: “Pakistan’s present and future, for better or worse, are still best understood through its geography.”


"That logic is founded on possession of the Indus Valley and (most of) the fertile plains of the Punjab, areas that, he claims, automatically tie in with the adjacent western uplands and hence to the vital trade routes of Central Asia and the Middle East. Polities based on this geographical space, he argues, were a staple feature of South Asian history: “This entire middle region — not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia — was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.” Such a territorial foundation, he further contends, became all the more important with the advent of Islam in the subcontinent: “Pakistan is the very geographical and national embodiment of all the Muslim invasions that have swept down into India throughout its history.”


"Kaplan contrasts this naturally constituted Indus-based state with another geographically determined locus of state formation further to the east: “the Indian subcontinent has two principal geographical regions: the Indus Valley with its tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its tributaries.”

What?s Wrong with Pakistan? | Foreign Policy

As somebody who majored in geography with some interest in history I always intrigued at how geography interacts with history. Below is map of River Indus as it threads it's way through entire lenghth of Pakistan turning the desert green - as is visible with the green strip until it drains into the Arabian Sea.

On the contrary Ganges flows east along a sub-humid tropical zone until it discharges into the Bay of Bangal.
There is no such thing called Ganges valley, the term used is Indo-Gangetic plains aka Indus-Gangetic plains comprising plains of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Also, Ganges is just one of the many rivers of India, the main river in North East in Brahmaputra, in North India its Ganga and Yamuna, in central India its Narmada, in South India its Krishna, Godavari and Cauvery.

Besides, Punjabis and Sindhis have historically shared a same origin and culture with Indians. Baloch and Pashtuns are foreign race both to Punjabis and Sindhis of Pakistan as well as all of India.
Devdas is offline  
Old January 10th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #14

Devdas's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2015
From: India
Posts: 2,628

I always wondered why Pakistan made Urdu its national language, Urdu language is native from Uttar Pradesh, the Persianized register of Khariboli zabaan of Uttar Pradesh.
Devdas is offline  
Old January 10th, 2017, 07:26 PM   #15

Bullit's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Pakistan
Posts: 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devdas View Post
There is no such thing called Ganges valley, the term used is Indo-Gangetic plains aka Indus-Gangetic plains comprising plains of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.
There is. Indus is distinct. This Indo-Gangetic contraption is peddled by those who want to create this monolith called 'India' by ignoring the differances and just jamming everything into one. I majored in geography. I know what Indus is and Ganges is. This is not the thread for this but if you care - please open another thread or I will in Natural Environent Forum or perhaps in the Chamber where we can look at this matter with facts and figures instead of placing a - in the middle and then using that to leverage your argument. I reiterate Indus is entirely distinct. It;s even visible on a satellite image.


Quote:
Also, Ganges is just one of the many rivers of India, the main river in North East in Brahmaputra, in North India its Ganga and Yamuna, in central India its Narmada, in South India its Krishna, Godavari and Cauvery.
I know. There are roughly three distinct regions in South Asia.

(1) Indus Region
(2) Ganges region
(3) Deccan or Peninsula India.

Most of (1) Indus falls within Pakistan. (2) Ganges and (3) Deccan falls in India. Indus basin is distinct and visibly so in the satellite image below. The Thar Desert effectively (marked desert) separates the Indus Valley from rest of India. Only in the far north is there a 'connect' in Punjab.


Click the image to open in full size.


A closer look at the Indus River in Pakistan (Semi Arid Zone) and the desert that on the right (Pak/India border runs throught it) that divides it from India.


Click the image to open in full size.


Furthermore Indus region is semi-arid desert and any precipitation map shows the glaring differntiation. Please look below of the deep red and red signifying extreme low rainfall whereas the Ganges on the right is wet-humid tropical and in marked blue in contrast to the Indus region which is dry semi-arid desert. This applies to Punjab also, only the irrigation keeps it green. On the map below you can contrast the left (Pakistan/Indus to Ganges/India on the right).


Click the image to open in full size.


Quote:
Besides, Punjabis and Sindhis have historically shared a same origin and culture with Indians. Baloch and Pashtuns are foreign race both to Punjabis and Sindhis of Pakistan as well as all of India.
First nothing is fixed. If not America which was set by English settlers would still be 'New England'. Secondly it is not so clear cut as you make it out to be. Punjabi;s and Pashtuns live next to each other. Come to Attock, Mianwali and Chach region see the how both groups merge on the edges. Also in the cities they are mixed. Similarly Punjabi's amd Sindhi's slowly blend in the Seraiki belt. These groups share the same geographic region. Granted the Pak Punjabi and Indian Punjabi have very much the same axis but on the Indian side that group is tiny fraction of what? 3%-4% of the population.

And Pashtuns maybe foreign to you but they are no more foreign in Pakistan then the Dravidian or Ladakhi Indians are to you. Pashtuns contrary to what you are aware of make the second largest component in Pakistan Army and occupy significant portion of the civil service. In politics some of the most significant leaders like President Ayub Khan were Pashtun. Right now the second largest politcal party in Pakistan is PTI headed by a Pashtun - Imran Khan.

I have no idea what they teach you in India but clearly your understanding of the domestic dynamic inside Pakistan is as weak as mine is of India.

Last edited by Bullit; January 10th, 2017 at 07:49 PM.
Bullit is online now  
Old January 10th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #16

mnsr's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 744

Nice articles. Especially the inspiration that Pakistan can take from Moenjodaro and Harappa.

But, I found many historical inaccuracies and gaps in these articles. And we must address these inaccuracies and gaps to make the ideas more powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit
"Kaplan contrasts this naturally constituted Indus-based state with another geographically determined locus of state formation further to the east: “the Indian subcontinent has two principal geographical regions: the Indus Valley with its tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its tributaries.”
I will start with this minor mistake made by Kaplan:

South Asia has not two but three principal geographical regions: Indus Valley, Ganges Valley and Deccan Plateau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan
Who are we? ... ideas about Pakistan ... indigenous cultures of Punjab, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan, Gilgit–Baltistan and the people who migrated to India?
A big mistake made by Badruddin I found here is that apart from Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, Baloch; Pakistan is not the people who migrated to India but those who migrated from India (Ganges-Deccan based State) in 1947.

And even bigger mistake is ignoring the fact that in 1947, Pakistan was not just Indus-based State but included the lower-Ganges portion (Bangladesh) as well.

• Why this lower-Ganges portion (Bangladesh) separated from the Ganges-Deccan based State and joined itself with Indus-based State ?

• And why do millions of people (Muslims) migrated from Ganges-Deccan based State to Indus+lower-Ganges-based State, what was the connection ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan
Our heritage goes back to the Indus Valley Civilization, one of the first people to build the great cities of Moenjadaro and Harappa.
This is the MOST important gap that need to be addressed:

From Indus Valley Civilization, Pakistanis directly jump to the creation of Pakistan in 1947.

Now between the collapse of Harappan Civilization to the creation of Pakistan in 1947, there is a history of 4000 years that really shaped the culture of this geographical region.

• Do you consider the legacy of these intermediate 4000 years as the heritage of Pakistan ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit
This entire middle region — not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia
Again the same mistake as pointed by Badruddin: "we choose to identify ourselves in the negative"

Try to define Pakistan as both South Asia as well as Central Asia. It can fit in Indian as well as Turco-Persian world very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devdas
I always wondered why Pakistan made Urdu its national language, Urdu language is native from Uttar Pradesh, the Persianized register of Khariboli zabaan of Uttar Pradesh.
Yes, Urdu is Ganges-based, BUT the identity of the Indus-based State.

Why is it the identity of Indus-based State ? The answer to these questions will help the Pakistan to find as where it belongs.
mnsr is offline  
Old January 10th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #17

Bullit's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Pakistan
Posts: 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devdas View Post
I always wondered why Pakistan made Urdu its national language, Urdu language is native from Uttar Pradesh, the Persianized register of Khariboli zabaan of Uttar Pradesh.
Your right there but history leaves all sort of legacy. Look at Hindi and how much ingress it has taken from Persian or Arabic or even Muslim heritage in India?

The Irish, a Celtic people speak English today in Ireland. That does not make them any less then Irishmen? American;s speak English but that does not make then English?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Nice articles. Especially the inspiration that Pakistan can take from Moenjodaro and Harappa.
My friend you raise some good points but I have run out of time. Will address them on my next visit here !

Last edited by Bullit; January 10th, 2017 at 07:48 PM.
Bullit is online now  
Old January 10th, 2017, 07:49 PM   #18

mnsr's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 744

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit
My friend you raise some good points but I have run out of time. Will address them on my next visit here !
Thanks, I will be waiting
mnsr is offline  
Old January 10th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #19

Bullit's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Pakistan
Posts: 163

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Thanks, I will be waiting
No worries, I earnestly hope that Pakistan and India can iron out their differances and move toward sort of European Union like compact. The sum of the of parts would be far greater and I think West Asia should be in our 'orbit' stretching all the way to Syria !

But we have to begin to give each other space and understand each other then push our own agendas on each other - for that only creates conflict and antognism.
Bullit is online now  
Old January 10th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #20

Naomasa298's Avatar
Sho-Ryu-Ken
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 27,195

I'm going to pretend most of the first page of this thread never happened. If I have to revisit this thread again, some people will be taking very extended breaks.

That clear to all of you?
Naomasa298 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
civilization, indus, majority, muslim, valley



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Indus Valley civilization unification Sharif Asian History 74 July 22nd, 2016 06:52 AM
Ethnicity of The Indus Valley Civilization 1991sudarshan Ancient History 71 December 17th, 2015 06:44 PM
Indus Valley Civilization and Thirukkural ? RajeevM Asian History 54 August 19th, 2015 08:00 PM
Indus Valley Civilization - Latest News Jhangora Asian History 41 March 16th, 2015 09:41 AM
Indus Valley is Tamil Civilization omtamil Asian History 407 December 21st, 2014 09:18 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.