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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bullit View Post
So, let me get this right. Your calling Pakistani's 'dirt' and 'bacha baazi' and you think this is factually correct?

And you call this civil discourse?
I'm stating a fact that people in most regions of India have a VERY low opinion of Pakistanis so the notion of joining Pakistan so that they can recreate some pre-historic "Indus Valley" crap or whatever is laughable.

And isn't bacha baazi widely practiced in Pakistan?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:13 AM   #32

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There is. Indus is distinct. This Indo-Gangetic contraption is peddled by those who want to create this monolith called 'India' by ignoring the differances and just jamming everything into one. I majored in geography. I know what Indus is and Ganges is. This is not the thread for this but if you care - please open another thread or I will in Natural Environent Forum or perhaps in the Chamber where we can look at this matter with facts and figures instead of placing a - in the middle and then using that to leverage your argument. I reiterate Indus is entirely distinct. It;s even visible on a satellite image.
Recently we had a religious ceremony at my home at we chanted this verse

"In this water, I invoke the presence of holy waters from the rivers Ganges, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Indus and Cauvery"

This verse clearly reflects the historical oneness of Indian civilization from Indus to Cauvery river. The idea gonna stay until our culture survives.

Pakistan is separate from India only because of one factor that is the "Muslim majority" Most of the Hindu Sindhis live in India while Muslim Sindhis in Pakistan, Punjabi Muslims live in a country with foreign race like Pashtuns instead of their fellow Hindu and Sikh Punjabis. Pakistan's founder Jinnah was from Gujarat and Liaquat was from Haryana and the national language is from Uttar Pradesh.

Also, Indo-Gangetic plains is a one single landmass comprising Sindh, West Punjab, East Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal and Bangladesh from West to East and historically these regions shared a same culture, religion and languages until the Arabs and central Asians arrived. Even the Indus valley comprised of doab of Ganges-Yamuna river and the now dried up Ghaggar-Hakra/Saraswati river.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:22 AM   #33

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First nothing is fixed. If not America which was set by English settlers would still be 'New England'. Secondly it is not so clear cut as you make it out to be. Punjabi;s and Pashtuns live next to each other. Come to Attock, Mianwali and Chach region see the how both groups merge on the edges. Also in the cities they are mixed. Similarly Punjabi's amd Sindhi's slowly blend in the Seraiki belt. These groups share the same geographic region. Granted the Pak Punjabi and Indian Punjabi have very much the same axis but on the Indian side that group is tiny fraction of what? 3%-4% of the population.

And Pashtuns maybe foreign to you but they are no more foreign in Pakistan then the Dravidian or Ladakhi Indians are to you. Pashtuns contrary to what you are aware of make the second largest component in Pakistan Army and occupy significant portion of the civil service. In politics some of the most significant leaders like President Ayub Khan were Pashtun. Right now the second largest politcal party in Pakistan is PTI headed by a Pashtun - Imran Khan.

I have no idea what they teach you in India but clearly your understanding of the domestic dynamic inside Pakistan is as weak as mine is of India.
I am quite aware of the views of Pashtuns, both the Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns see Punjabi Muslims as foreign, very often mock them how they were defeated by Pashtun invaders throughout history. Baloch infact see themselves different from remaining three.

Dravidian is just a British invention around 150 years ago because in Hindu literature, Dravida was just Sanskrit name for the states- Tamil Nadu and Kerala. I too concede that Ladakhis and North East people(except Assam) were historically not the part of culture but became recently associated to our nation. Ladakh was infact inherited as a part of India due to Sikh Empire.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #34
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Some people will have trouble accepting this fact but IVC has almost nothing to do with Pakistanis, or with Indians for that matter. For most of it's history, Pakistan is not any centre of civilisation, but a peripheral region lying at the crossroads between the Indic world centred around the Madhyadesha and the regions to the west. In documented history, Pakistan has not been considered any urban region with great wealth but an arid region with mostly pre-state primitive people with their societies organised in an extremely tribal fashion. Even Al Beruni says that the regions of Lahore and Multan are filled with primitive people who have not any sense of organised religion or materially developed life. I'm not happy about being an Indian but I'm sure it is much more bearable than being a Pakistani.

It is really hilarious to read this thread and see how some people are struggling to have some kind of "national" identity. In reality, both Pakistan and India are equally artificial states, and any sense of Pakistani or Indian nationhood isn't organic. If Pakistani or Indian governments were to collapse, both these "nations" and their "national" identities would soon cease to exist. You can feel some solidarity with your ethno-linguist groups and such, but to believe that a Pakistani "nation" actually exists and has something to do with IVC is plain hilarious.

Last edited by Bhrigu; January 11th, 2017 at 05:30 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:06 AM   #35

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yes, because Eastern Punjab (till agra) is part of Punjab and Western Rajasthan and Gujarat is Part of Sindh and we dont want Whole Rajasthan and Gujarat, just western parts, because we have nothing in common with Rajasthanis and Gujratis.
Good. In what way you are going to achieve your ambitions, dreams?
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Thanks for that extract from Wiki but I am lost as to the point your making?
No. I am not making any point here. I am just quoting a few verses from a later section of RigVeda.
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Even Al Beruni says that the regions of Lahore and Multan are filled with primitive people who have not any sense of organised religion or materially developed life.
Abū Rayḥān Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad Al-Bīrūnī, was a foreigner. Why should we expect him to say something good about India?

Last edited by Aupmanyav; January 11th, 2017 at 06:14 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:12 AM   #36

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Good. In what way you are going to achieve your ambitions, dreams?
If he would have been in charge of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal, he might have launched several nuclear tipped missiles against India already.
He seems to be a disciple of Hafeez Sayeed.
It is worrying that in such hands, the future of the planet lies. Surely opinions such as these make Pakistan a menace in the international community.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:21 AM   #37

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Your right there but history leaves all sort of legacy. Look at Hindi and how much ingress it has taken from Persian or Arabic or even Muslim heritage in India?

The Irish, a Celtic people speak English today in Ireland. That does not make them any less then Irishmen? American;s speak English but that does not make then English?

My friend you raise some good points but I have run out of time. Will address them on my next visit here !
The Hindi we speak is only infused by some Persian or Arabic words, it didn't replace the native language, even British infused far many foreign origin words but still they speak the original language. The Irish speak English because British forced them too. Even after they revived Irish language as the official language and every Irish must study in school. United States have origin in 13 colonies of English origin people. But Pakistan had thriving five languages in 1947- Bengali, Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Baloch, nobody forced them to abandom their language. So, why there was a need for Indian origin language for a distinct Pakistani identity. By census of 1947, Bengali was most fit to be Pakistan's national language, not Urdu as a little more than half of the population spoke Bengal and second was Punjabi spoken by a quarter of Pakistan population.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 06:33 AM   #38

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Yes, Urdu is Ganges-based, BUT the identity of the Indus-based State.

Why is it the identity of Indus-based State ? The answer to these questions will help the Pakistan to find as where it belongs.
Pakistan was founded on only factor Muslim identity and there is hardly any cultural or geographical link or ethnic link to the Pakistani identity.

Here are some of the factors.
1. Muslim Sindhis- Pakistanis, Hindu Sindhis- Indians

2. Muslim Punjabis- Pakistanis, Sikh+Hindu Punjabis

3. Jinnah was native of Kathiawad region of Gujarat and he could speak Gujarati and English only, none of them native to Pakistan. Liaquat Ali Khan birthplace is in modern Haryana.

4. National language Urdu- native to Uttar Pradesh

5. Allama Iqbal(birthplace West Punjab) composed "saare jahan se acha Hindustan hamara. ("greatest in the world, its our India")

6. The Punjabis and Sindhis Muslims and even Bengali Muslims chose to live with foreign race like Baloch and Pashtun Muslims instead of their Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus, Sindhi Hindus and Bengali Hindus.

7. Sindhi Hindu kings like Dahir are seen as a villian and enemy of Pakistani people and Muhammad Bin Qasim being seen as the first Pakistani.

After knowing this, it looks quite bewildering to imagine a Pakistan claiming a separate history based on ethnicity.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 07:22 AM   #39

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Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
brother, whole of Eastern Punjab till Agra, Western Rajasthan and Gujarat were populated by people of IVC, we colonized those lands. even by ethnicity those people are very similar to Modern day Punjabis and Sindhis both Genetically and Culturally, their language is also very similar.

This is what Great Rahmat Ali and our Father wanted.
Click the image to open in full size.
When I say Historum is not a site for promoting nationalist agendas, I mean it.

If anyone else is feeling lucky and wants to make my day, go right ahead.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 08:05 AM   #40

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Originally Posted by TomarRajput View Post
I'm stating a fact that people in most regions of India have a VERY low opinion of Pakistanis so the notion of joining Pakistan so that they can recreate some pre-historic "Indus Valley" crap or whatever is laughable.
Those feelings are exactly mutual across the border but multiplied by factor of 10. How is stating the obvious relevant to this thread?


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Originally Posted by Devdas View Post
Recently we had a religious ceremony at my home at we chanted this verse

"In this water, I invoke the presence of holy waters from the rivers Ganges, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Indus and Cauvery"
I recited the Quran and others read the bible across the world both of which make referances to the holy land. Non of that gives me excusivity or others some claim on Israel/Palestine or Saudia Arabia. I can certainly see being told to buzz off by some Saudi immigration officer if somehow I use reciting the Quran as a basis of some exclusivity on Saudia Arabia.


Quote:
Pakistan is separate from India only because of one factor that is the "Muslim majority" Most of the Hindu Sindhis live in India while Muslim Sindhis in Pakistan, Punjabi Muslims live in a country with foreign race like Pashtuns instead of their fellow Hindu and Sikh Punjabis. Pakistan's founder Jinnah was from Gujarat and Liaquat was from Haryana and the national language is from Uttar Pradesh.
Remind me to consult Indian when wanting referance on Pakistan and a Pakistani when wanting a referance on India. The results will be interesting to say the least.

And when American became independant from England, most Americans were 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation settlers from England, spoke English and had English culture ! Does that make America less?


Quote:
Also, Indo-Gangetic plains is a one single landmass
That question lies in the domain of geography. Please open another thread in appropriate forum and we can take this further. I love geography would quite enjoy that. By the way Europe and Asia are also one, single landmass.



To all here, this entire thread has just turned into bare naked nationalism intended to further prejudices based on nothing more than bias, hate, media hype or plain simple propaganda, lacking any objectivity. I might have had a discussion with @msnr but there are simply too many trolls here so this is my last post here.

Have good day all.

Last edited by Bullit; January 11th, 2017 at 08:33 AM.
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