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Old January 10th, 2017, 07:35 AM   #1
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A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?


Who are we? For most of our history we have been caught between competing ideas about Pakistan. Is it a land for Muslims? What does an Islamic identity mean for the indigenous cultures of Punjab, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan, Gilgit–Baltistan and the people who migrated to India?
Greatness is created through synthesis, and when old ideas are challenged by new paradigms. The decade of the 1940s saw the North East states of British India challenged by secular Muslim nationalism. What does that mean to us? We are still in the process of understanding it. But in doing so, we have relied on too many easy answers. Our national identity is based on repudiation; we choose to identify ourselves in the negative: we are not India. Our inability to step forward is because we have failed to create any synthesis from the social and political currents available to us. Let us then challenge our paralysis and press forward with our inquiry — let us seek to imagine who we are, and who we could be.

Our history does not start with 1947, nor with Muhammed bin Qasim’s (in)famous and glorified conquest of Sindh. Those events are important but form an incomplete story of our past. Our heritage goes back to the Indus Valley Civilization, one of the first people to build the great cities of Moenjadaro and Harappa, a complex language and mathematical system, and centers of commerce in Asia. The source of this great civilization was the Indus River whose mighty banks nourished and fed its people. Today it is not nuclear weapons that protect our country but the Indus, whose artery and tributaries provide the life flow of our country. By remembering that we are the heirs of the Indus Valley Civilization, we can shift our focus from the anti to the river itself. We can concentrate on protecting our environment and saving the river that is literally the lifeblood of the country, and the source of our food and electricity. We are a natural nation bound by the Indus, if the Indus dries out the country will collapse.

This doesn’t mean that we completely ignore the advent of the Mughals, the conquest of the British, the height of Hindu-Muslim unity during the war of independence and its subsequent breakdown, despite the best efforts of members of the leadership class. And of course, the bloodshed in the years leading to Partition – events which concluded that religion was going to play a role, however so undefined, in the consciousness of the masses of Pakistan.

While religion comes from the same source, it is up to different countries and peoples on how to interpret it to enrich their lives. That is why the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia is different from the one practiced in most of Pakistan. The role of religion (in all of its cultural, spiritual, non-denominational and ritual manifestations) will remain in society. What is important is for thinkers to channel it into a force that is creative and not destructive, inclusive and pluralistic, not one that imposes its will on the unwilling. One that is large enough to include free thinkers and conservative clerics. One that encourages selfishness and a spirit of citizenship. One that convinces individuals that they have greater aims than their everyday jobs, but does not encourage utopian personalities or apocalyptic thinking.

What is the relationship between the pre-Islamic, pre-Christian Indus Valley Civilization to today’s Islamic Republic of Pakistan? These two strands of the secular and religious deliberately create a powerful contradiction. Contradictions are good because they deny any single understanding of morality and create a vibrant society through debate and compromise.

Embracing our Indus past will enable us to reject Arab cultural imperialism in the name of religion, and will help us discard the Two-Nation Theory. We will be focused not on fighting wars with India, but in making the greatest cities in the world. Cities like those of the past, which valued trade and commerce and became the hub of Indo-Persian-Chinese commerce. Let our market places be flooded by people from all over the world and be a blend of cultures. We will be a country that celebrates diversity; ethnic diversity of the many languages and cultures around the ecosystem of the great river, and religious diversity, for it will be a country for (all types of) Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs who can respect this ecosystem. It will be a country that empowers its minorities. And once religion is prevented from being abused we can truly reconcile it with modernity and our legacy of British constitutionalism.

Once our conscious awakens to this idea, we will be a renewed nation. On the crumbling edifices of Moenjadaro and Harappa we will once more build great cities, and build a great country.
A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization? - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
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Old January 10th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #2

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Good luck to you and to your nation. Pak Watan. May Allah preserve you.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #3

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Liberty, Democracy, Capitalism, Socialism; these are the pistons in the engine that drives us all into the future.

Remember that keeping your eye on the prize means not looking back.

I hope that is not too zen-like.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 10:00 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
Who are we? For most of our history we have been caught between competing ideas about Pakistan. Is it a land for Muslims? What does an Islamic identity mean for the indigenous cultures of Punjab, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan, Gilgit–Baltistan and the people who migrated to India?
Greatness is created through synthesis, and when old ideas are challenged by new paradigms. The decade of the 1940s saw the North East states of British India challenged by secular Muslim nationalism. What does that mean to us? We are still in the process of understanding it. But in doing so, we have relied on too many easy answers. Our national identity is based on repudiation; we choose to identify ourselves in the negative: we are not India. Our inability to step forward is because we have failed to create any synthesis from the social and political currents available to us. Let us then challenge our paralysis and press forward with our inquiry — let us seek to imagine who we are, and who we could be.

Our history does not start with 1947, nor with Muhammed bin Qasim’s (in)famous and glorified conquest of Sindh. Those events are important but form an incomplete story of our past. Our heritage goes back to the Indus Valley Civilization, one of the first people to build the great cities of Moenjadaro and Harappa, a complex language and mathematical system, and centers of commerce in Asia. The source of this great civilization was the Indus River whose mighty banks nourished and fed its people. Today it is not nuclear weapons that protect our country but the Indus, whose artery and tributaries provide the life flow of our country. By remembering that we are the heirs of the Indus Valley Civilization, we can shift our focus from the anti to the river itself. We can concentrate on protecting our environment and saving the river that is literally the lifeblood of the country, and the source of our food and electricity. We are a natural nation bound by the Indus, if the Indus dries out the country will collapse.

This doesn’t mean that we completely ignore the advent of the Mughals, the conquest of the British, the height of Hindu-Muslim unity during the war of independence and its subsequent breakdown, despite the best efforts of members of the leadership class. And of course, the bloodshed in the years leading to Partition – events which concluded that religion was going to play a role, however so undefined, in the consciousness of the masses of Pakistan.

While religion comes from the same source, it is up to different countries and peoples on how to interpret it to enrich their lives. That is why the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia is different from the one practiced in most of Pakistan. The role of religion (in all of its cultural, spiritual, non-denominational and ritual manifestations) will remain in society. What is important is for thinkers to channel it into a force that is creative and not destructive, inclusive and pluralistic, not one that imposes its will on the unwilling. One that is large enough to include free thinkers and conservative clerics. One that encourages selfishness and a spirit of citizenship. One that convinces individuals that they have greater aims than their everyday jobs, but does not encourage utopian personalities or apocalyptic thinking.

What is the relationship between the pre-Islamic, pre-Christian Indus Valley Civilization to today’s Islamic Republic of Pakistan? These two strands of the secular and religious deliberately create a powerful contradiction. Contradictions are good because they deny any single understanding of morality and create a vibrant society through debate and compromise.

Embracing our Indus past will enable us to reject Arab cultural imperialism in the name of religion, and will help us discard the Two-Nation Theory. We will be focused not on fighting wars with India, but in making the greatest cities in the world. Cities like those of the past, which valued trade and commerce and became the hub of Indo-Persian-Chinese commerce. Let our market places be flooded by people from all over the world and be a blend of cultures. We will be a country that celebrates diversity; ethnic diversity of the many languages and cultures around the ecosystem of the great river, and religious diversity, for it will be a country for (all types of) Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs who can respect this ecosystem. It will be a country that empowers its minorities. And once religion is prevented from being abused we can truly reconcile it with modernity and our legacy of British constitutionalism.

Once our conscious awakens to this idea, we will be a renewed nation. On the crumbling edifices of Moenjadaro and Harappa we will once more build great cities, and build a great country.
A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization? - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Fine thoughts on paper but does your belligerent army and the Kashmir valley separatists fed and armed by them, agree with all that ? Have you asked your bosom friends the Chinese ? They might object. What about the loony mullah Hafiz Sayeed who wants to convert all Hindus of India into Islam ? surely his plans are different.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 11:13 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
Who are we? For most of our history we have been caught between competing ideas about Pakistan. Is it a land for Muslims? What does an Islamic identity mean for the indigenous cultures of Punjab, Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Balochistan, Gilgit–Baltistan and the people who migrated to India?
Greatness is created through synthesis, and when old ideas are challenged by new paradigms. The decade of the 1940s saw the North East states of British India challenged by secular Muslim nationalism. What does that mean to us? We are still in the process of understanding it. But in doing so, we have relied on too many easy answers. Our national identity is based on repudiation; we choose to identify ourselves in the negative: we are not India. Our inability to step forward is because we have failed to create any synthesis from the social and political currents available to us. Let us then challenge our paralysis and press forward with our inquiry — let us seek to imagine who we are, and who we could be.

Our history does not start with 1947, nor with Muhammed bin Qasim’s (in)famous and glorified conquest of Sindh. Those events are important but form an incomplete story of our past. Our heritage goes back to the Indus Valley Civilization, one of the first people to build the great cities of Moenjadaro and Harappa, a complex language and mathematical system, and centers of commerce in Asia. The source of this great civilization was the Indus River whose mighty banks nourished and fed its people. Today it is not nuclear weapons that protect our country but the Indus, whose artery and tributaries provide the life flow of our country. By remembering that we are the heirs of the Indus Valley Civilization, we can shift our focus from the anti to the river itself. We can concentrate on protecting our environment and saving the river that is literally the lifeblood of the country, and the source of our food and electricity. We are a natural nation bound by the Indus, if the Indus dries out the country will collapse.

This doesn’t mean that we completely ignore the advent of the Mughals, the conquest of the British, the height of Hindu-Muslim unity during the war of independence and its subsequent breakdown, despite the best efforts of members of the leadership class. And of course, the bloodshed in the years leading to Partition – events which concluded that religion was going to play a role, however so undefined, in the consciousness of the masses of Pakistan.

While religion comes from the same source, it is up to different countries and peoples on how to interpret it to enrich their lives. That is why the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia is different from the one practiced in most of Pakistan. The role of religion (in all of its cultural, spiritual, non-denominational and ritual manifestations) will remain in society. What is important is for thinkers to channel it into a force that is creative and not destructive, inclusive and pluralistic, not one that imposes its will on the unwilling. One that is large enough to include free thinkers and conservative clerics. One that encourages selfishness and a spirit of citizenship. One that convinces individuals that they have greater aims than their everyday jobs, but does not encourage utopian personalities or apocalyptic thinking.

What is the relationship between the pre-Islamic, pre-Christian Indus Valley Civilization to today’s Islamic Republic of Pakistan? These two strands of the secular and religious deliberately create a powerful contradiction. Contradictions are good because they deny any single understanding of morality and create a vibrant society through debate and compromise.

Embracing our Indus past will enable us to reject Arab cultural imperialism in the name of religion, and will help us discard the Two-Nation Theory. We will be focused not on fighting wars with India, but in making the greatest cities in the world. Cities like those of the past, which valued trade and commerce and became the hub of Indo-Persian-Chinese commerce. Let our market places be flooded by people from all over the world and be a blend of cultures. We will be a country that celebrates diversity; ethnic diversity of the many languages and cultures around the ecosystem of the great river, and religious diversity, for it will be a country for (all types of) Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs who can respect this ecosystem. It will be a country that empowers its minorities. And once religion is prevented from being abused we can truly reconcile it with modernity and our legacy of British constitutionalism.

Once our conscious awakens to this idea, we will be a renewed nation. On the crumbling edifices of Moenjadaro and Harappa we will once more build great cities, and build a great country.
A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization? - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
10/10 Pakistan - a blessed land that gave birth to the Indus Civilization counting in the mighty Harrapa, Mohenjo Daro, Rehman Dheri and many other that were contemperory to Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilization. Indus River that still today nourishes all of Pakistan as it flows along the entire lenght of the country with life giving water without which Pakistan would revert to huge semi-arid desert.

The mighty Indus as significant and cradle of human civilization as Nile is what sustains Pakistan today. The modern state is the latest iteration of long dance of history that began millenia's ago.

To quote Robert Kaplan -

"Ganges-based state (India) to leapfrog an Indus-based state (Pakistan)"

"In a recent Foreign Policy article, Robert Kaplan argues that Pakistan’s problems—and its destiny—are rooted in its physical landscape: “Pakistan’s present and future, for better or worse, are still best understood through its geography.”


"That logic is founded on possession of the Indus Valley and (most of) the fertile plains of the Punjab, areas that, he claims, automatically tie in with the adjacent western uplands and hence to the vital trade routes of Central Asia and the Middle East. Polities based on this geographical space, he argues, were a staple feature of South Asian history: “This entire middle region — not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia — was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.” Such a territorial foundation, he further contends, became all the more important with the advent of Islam in the subcontinent: “Pakistan is the very geographical and national embodiment of all the Muslim invasions that have swept down into India throughout its history.”


"Kaplan contrasts this naturally constituted Indus-based state with another geographically determined locus of state formation further to the east: “the Indian subcontinent has two principal geographical regions: the Indus Valley with its tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its tributaries.”

http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/06/18/...with-pakistan/

As somebody who majored in geography with some interest in history I always intrigued at how geography interacts with history. Below is map of River Indus as it threads it's way through entire lenghth of Pakistan turning the desert green - as is visible with the green strip until it drains into the Arabian Sea.

On the contrary Ganges flows east along a sub-humid tropical zone until it discharges into the Bay of Bangal.



Click the image to open in full size.


Location of Indus River


Click the image to open in full size.



The Indus Basin


Click the image to open in full size.



The importance of Indus River to Pakistan. The River and it's tributaries serve like the human cardiovascular system bringing water to a parched and sandy land.


Click the image to open in full size.


Historical names

Click the image to open in full size.


The fact of the matter is Indus has played a profound role in history and continues to play that profound role today in Pakistan. The river has been as significant in history as that other great River - Nile in Egypt which also brings life into what in fact is a desert region. In Pakistan we are in fact a desert. The map below shows the precipitation and why Indus is so important now and in history.

Click the image to open in full size.


The faster that people in Pakistan wake upto the the fact that not only is the River Indus important to them today (which they do) but also become aware how it has formed them as people ever since their forefathers built Harappa in the Indus Valley Civilization and began the long journey to what is now Pakistan. The better we all will be.

Although Aitzaz Ahsan seminal book The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan has woken up many people beyond the mullah rhetoric and slowly a connect is taking place with 'father of Pakistan' - The mighty Indus

https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...er&redir_esc=y

Last edited by Bullit; January 10th, 2017 at 11:39 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit View Post
10/10 Pakistan - a blessed land that gave birth to the Indus Civilization counting in the mighty Harrapa, Mohenjo Daro, Rehman Dheri and many other that were contemperory to Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilization. Indus River that still today nourishes all of Pakistan as it flows along the entire lenght of the country with life giving water without which Pakistan would revert to huge semi-arid desert.

The mighty Indus as significant and cradle of human civilization as Nile is what sustains Pakistan today. The modern state is the latest iteration of long dance of history that began millenia's ago.

To quote Robert Kaplan -

"Ganges-based state (India) to leapfrog an Indus-based state (Pakistan)"

"In a recent Foreign Policy article, Robert Kaplan argues that Pakistan’s problems—and its destiny—are rooted in its physical landscape: “Pakistan’s present and future, for better or worse, are still best understood through its geography.”


"That logic is founded on possession of the Indus Valley and (most of) the fertile plains of the Punjab, areas that, he claims, automatically tie in with the adjacent western uplands and hence to the vital trade routes of Central Asia and the Middle East. Polities based on this geographical space, he argues, were a staple feature of South Asian history: “This entire middle region — not quite the subcontinent, not quite Central Asia — was more than a frontier zone or a bold line on a map: It was a fluid cultural organism and the center of many civilizations in their own right.” Such a territorial foundation, he further contends, became all the more important with the advent of Islam in the subcontinent: “Pakistan is the very geographical and national embodiment of all the Muslim invasions that have swept down into India throughout its history.”


"Kaplan contrasts this naturally constituted Indus-based state with another geographically determined locus of state formation further to the east: “the Indian subcontinent has two principal geographical regions: the Indus Valley with its tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its tributaries.”

What?s Wrong with Pakistan? | Foreign Policy

As somebody who majored in geography with some interest in history I always intrigued at how geography interacts with history. Below is map of River Indus as it threads it's way through entire lenghth of Pakistan turning the desert green - as is visible with the green strip until it drains into the Arabian Sea.

On the contrary Ganges flows east along a sub-humid tropical zone until it discharges into the Bay of Bangal.



Click the image to open in full size.


Location of Indus River


Click the image to open in full size.



The Indus Basin


Click the image to open in full size.



The importance of Indus River to Pakistan. The River and it's tributaries serve like the human cardiovascular system bringing water to a parched and sandy land.


Click the image to open in full size.


Historical names

Click the image to open in full size.


The fact of the matter is Indus has played a profound role in history and continues to play that profound role today in Pakistan. The river has been as significant in history as that other great River - Nile in Egypt which also brings life into what in fact is a desert region. In Pakistan we are in fact a desert. The map below shows the precipitation and why Indus is so important now and in history.

Click the image to open in full size.


The faster that people in Pakistan wake upto the the fact that not only is the River Indus important to them today (which they do) but also become aware how it has formed them as people ever since their forefathers built Harappa in the Indus Valley Civilization and began the long journey to what is now Pakistan. The better we all will be.

Although Aitzaz Ahsan seminal book The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan has woken up many people beyond the mullah rhetoric and slowly a connect is taking place with 'father of Pakistan' - The mighty Indus

https://books.google.co.uk/books/abo...er&redir_esc=y
right brother, we have to take back our heritage stolen by some very non-ancient people. do you agree that Pakistan is incomplete without Eastern Punjab, Western Rajasthan and Gujarat ? are those people related to us genetically ? should we get back those regions ?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
Fine thoughts on paper but does your belligerent army and the Kashmir valley separatists fed and armed by them, agree with all that ? Have you asked your bosom friends the Chinese ? They might object. What about the loony mullah Hafiz Sayeed who wants to convert all Hindus of India into Islam ? surely his plans are different.
hows killing people for eating beef is for you ? are muslims in your country allowed to eat meat ? can they get their mosque back ? how's your sugar daddy Russia ? when will Indians stop shitting in Streets ? what about RSS goons and BJP terrorists modi who butured 1000s of Muslims ? and those swamis who wants to convert every Muslim to Hinduism ? hows gharwapsi is going ?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:25 PM   #8
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It's funny seeing a country so desperate for an identity that they're using a murky civilisation of which we know little as a tool to stop their nation from disintegrating LOL.

Last edited by TomarRajput; January 10th, 2017 at 02:33 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 02:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
right brother, we have to take back our heritage stolen by some very non-ancient people. do you agree that Pakistan is incomplete without Eastern Punjab, Western Rajasthan and Gujarat ? are those people related to us genetically ? should we get back those regions ?
Brother, Pakistanis are Chamar type people with Middle Eastern invader blood. The people in those regions (especially the high castes) consider Pakistanis as next to dirt and mlecchas.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 03:51 PM   #10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pak Watan View Post
right brother, we have to take back our heritage stolen by some very non-ancient people. do you agree that Pakistan is incomplete without Eastern Punjab, Western Rajasthan and Gujarat ? are those people related to us genetically ? should we get back those regions ?
pakistanis are as ancient as most people in northern and southern India. Infact of most of subcontinental history the powerbase has always been gangetic plane expecially U.P and bihar. lets talk facts here after the decline of IVC a lot of people migrated to the gangetic planes because it did not dry up like gagar harkka river. The civilization entity in north India is called indo-gangetic plain civilization for this very reason they were never seperate from each other. Pakistan chose to build its identity solely as a muslim state. It was'nt India that asked for it. Rest by default ranging from Hindu,christian,buddhist,sikhs,jews etc choose to be with India because it was pakistan that called for muslim nation. You now want it back because you are the same ethnicity. First decide what you want. Do you want a state for muslim or on ethnicity.
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