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Old April 10th, 2017, 09:19 AM   #1

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Koreans share same origin as Jurchen and Mongols?


Annals of Joseon Dynasty the annual records of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea, which were kept from 1413 to 1865. The annals, or sillok, comprise 1,893 volumes and are thought to cover the longest continual period of a single dynasty in the world. With the exception of two sillok compiled during the colonial era, the Annals are the 151st national treasure of Korea and listed in UNESCO's Memory of the World registry.

The Annals are written in Classical Chinese; they were translated into modern Korean in the 1980s in North Korea and in 1994 in South Korea. Parts of the Annals of the Joseon Dynasty have been scanned by Seoul National University and are available online.

In year 1449, Mongols were under leadership of Daizong Khan(脫脫不花), but Esen (也先) held the true political power. When Esen fell Guang Ning Sheng (廣寧省) of Liaodong in 1449, he took mercy on Koreans (高麗) and Jurchens (女眞) living there, claiming that they were of the same origin as Mongols. As long as the Koreans & Jurchens follow the Mongol dress code and pigtail (辮髮) they were spared and let go. However, All Han Chinese in Guang Ning Sheng had their nose and ears cut off.

So who were the proto Mongol/Jurchen/Korean culture (that excludes Han Chinese) that shares the common root?

EDIT: Grammar

Last edited by Drizzt; April 10th, 2017 at 09:27 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 09:51 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt View Post
So who were the proto Mongol/Jurchen/Korean culture (that excludes Han Chinese) that shares the common root?
There's no evidence that such people ever existed.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 10:02 AM   #3

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There's no evidence that such people ever existed.
The definition has been changing over time, but you might call them 東夷. All 3 cultures are known for their bow making, and their skills on and off horseback are well known fact.

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Old April 10th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #4
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The definition has been changing over time, but you might call them 東夷. All 3 cultures are known for their bow making, and their skills on and off horseback are well known fact.
Both features are common for many nations throughout the steppe. It's not really much of an evidence for anything. At best for cultural contact. Also Dongyi is a collective term, not meant to represent any specific people.

One could argue that what Esen meant was exactly what you mentioned. That Goryeo (i.e. Goguryeo) people shared similarities with Jurchens and proto-Mongols in their life style. Nothing strange considering that predecessors to Goguryeo, Buyeo were living further to the north. I'm not sure either whether 輩本 actually must denote ethnicity.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #5

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Both features are common for many nations throughout the steppe. It's not really much of an evidence for anything. At best for cultural contact. Also Dongyi is a collective term, not meant to represent any specific people.

One could argue that what Esen meant was exactly what you mentioned. That Goryeo (i.e. Goguryeo) people shared similarities with Jurchens and proto-Mongols in their life style. Nothing strange considering that predecessors to Goguryeo, Buyeo were living further to the north. I'm not sure either whether 輩本 actually must denote ethnicity.
Ha ha I guess a Mongol person with true political power claiming Koreans and Jurchens are of same origin has no weigh whatsoever. Whatever you say man. You are smarter and more knowledgeable than Mongol general.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 10:52 AM   #6
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Ha ha I guess a Mongol person with true political power claiming Koreans and Jurchens are of same origin has no weigh whatsoever. Whatever you say man. You are smarter and more knowledgeable than Mongol general.
Him being Mongol Taishi doesn't make every word he says an absolute truth. History needs a lot more evidence than just one statement.

Consider please one thing. Why Manchus (and Esen) claim to share origin with Koreans, but Koreans throughout history never did so until modern times? I'm not saying that it is impossible, just that one statement is hardly enough of an evidence.

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Old April 10th, 2017, 11:27 AM   #7

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It's possible that a link between Jurchens and Mongols was invented at some point when the two groups became allies, but earlier genealogies record no link between Mongols and Jurchens. In the time of Genghis Khan, for instance, there was no mention of Mongols and Jurchens being related. Jurchens were a foreign people (and hostile towards the Mongols).

It was not unusal for common ancestors to be 'discovered" when two groups made an alliance. It was a way to make everything more legitimate. Guang Ning Sheng was just repeating whatever the popular geneology was at that time. It doesnt prove any link, but it does show that some people did believe a link existed by that period.

Last edited by stevapalooza; April 10th, 2017 at 11:34 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 11:51 AM   #8
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Hi everyone.

This theory has merit. Let's say some seafarers from southern China that are similar to native Hawaiians and Somoans landed in Korea. Initially they are a very small group, but they greatly expand their numbers using the fertile farmlands of Korea. Naturally, these large, beefy warrior stock people would leak into the dangerous Steppe lands and be adept at surviving in the barren grasslands, similar to how their forebearers were able to navigate the large tracts of ocean.

What this would imply is, the forebearers of Mongol and Jurchen were a subset of the Korean population, if not the founders of some of the ancient Korean kingdoms.

Last edited by Jangkwan; April 10th, 2017 at 11:54 AM.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #9

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There's this famous story of a Koryeo diplomat diverting a disastrous encounter with Khitans and actually taking back some of our ancient lands. In year 993 (12th year of King Seongjong's reign), Khitan (契丹 or 大遼) invaded Koryeo with 800,000 strong army. Khitan general demanded Koryeo return their ancestral land currently part of Koryeo. His reasoning was that, "Koryeo originated from Silla and Goguryeo's ancient land is Khitan's. We are here to take back what's rightfully ours." 徐熙 countered Khitan general's claim by saying, "Hell no. Koryeo is the true descendants of Goguryeo. That is why we named our country Goryeo and our capital 西京. He claimed that the land Khitan is occupying is the land that the true descendants of Goguryeo has the claim to and should be given back to Koryeo."

Khitan general's actual purpose of the invasion was to make sure Koryeo does not side with Song when Khitan invades Song. So Khitan general asked Koryeo's diplomat why Koryeo do not trade with Khitan. 徐熙 responded back to Khitan general, "If we chase away the Jurchens and recover our ancestral land, we will have direct path to trade with you."
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Old April 10th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #10
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What would really solve all problems is if we change the actual location of Buyeo to somewhere in southern China and make the founding of Goguryeo and Baekje as part of the expansion of Somaon/Hawaiian types who are projected to have come out of southern China. Why we think Buyeo is in Manchuria could just be an instance of ancient historians filling in the blanks for parts that no longer made sense to them.

In this case, Khitan thinking they were from Goguryeo would even make sense. Mongol-Korean brotherhood would make sense if they were all descended from a small clan of warlike seafarers.

Last edited by Jangkwan; April 10th, 2017 at 08:42 PM.
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