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Old April 21st, 2017, 07:58 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
all the claimed areas had been claimed since the past, with 1949 being the cutoff line. there is no new claim

you can check the list. the list is constant in a way that there is only deleting operation since 1949 with no adding operation since 1949.
Are you talking about the South China Sea and the island dispute between China and Japan? China is getting militarily stronger. That's the difference from 1949.

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Originally Posted by bananasinpajamas View Post
No one gets jumpy at that. Even the NE project acknowledges Goguryeo and its role in Korean history.

The only people getting jumpy are Koreans when someone explains Goguryeo's connection to China. Then we get strawman claims that Chinese are saying "Goguryeo is Chinese" etc
I'm certainly not jumpy at that. I went to China to see the Goguryeo ruins and monuments. But the Chinese members in this forum keep bringing up the Goguryeo issue and blame Korea over and over again.

Last edited by Blue; April 21st, 2017 at 08:06 AM.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 08:05 AM   #52
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Are you talking about the South China Sea and the island dispute between China and Japan? China is getting militarily stronger. That's the difference from 1949.
i am talking about any of chinese claims.
there is no difference on chinese claims, either it be that of 1949 or that of 2017
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Old April 21st, 2017, 08:05 AM   #53

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The existence of a Korean script language and identity certainly presuppose a Korean nation ,
the flow of history had much to do with the northern Asian , Manchus , Mongols and Japanese , in no way does it deny a Korean nation

the case for Vietnam being a daughter of china could be raised also
the Vietnamese would probably give the middle finger to this
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Old April 21st, 2017, 08:07 AM   #54

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Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
i am talking about any of chinese claims.
there is no difference on chinese claims, either it be that of 1949 or that of 2017
My point wasn't on whether these claims were new or not.

You're only thinking from China's point of view. Try thinking from the point of view of a smaller neighbour of China.

Last edited by Blue; April 21st, 2017 at 08:10 AM.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 08:15 AM   #55
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My point wasn't on whether these claims were new or not.

You're only thinking from China's point of view. Try thinking from the point of view of a smaller neighbour of China.
i cannot know what you mean thinking from the point of view of a smaller neighbour.

if korean think china is going to claim more lands because of bigger size, then they will have to think in that way to the end of the world.
until then, china would always be bigger than korea.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 08:29 AM   #56

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i cannot know what you mean thinking from the point of view of a smaller neighbour.

if korean think china is going to claim more lands because of bigger size, then they will have to think in that way to the end of the world.
until then, china would always be bigger than korea.
I mentioned why, and I'm beginning to think you do to. But you're avoiding to mention it.

By the way, you're probably thinking that the Koreans are the only ones who bring this up. It seems that way because the Koreans in the forums don't hide it from the Chinese. I meet people from places like the US, India, Japan and the Philippines. They don't trust China either, but they don't show it on front of the Chinese. It's unfortunate because it makes the Koreans look weird. I have Chinese friends, too. One of them talked positively about Xi Jinping because he tried to put a stop to the corruption. But he recently told me that Xi wants to make China powerful and influential in Asia again. He added that this would be a problem when considering that Trump is aggressive and the two can collide some time in the future. Don't get me wrong. When I heard what the others said about China and what the Chinese said about them, I was saddened at how the world seems to be going backwards.

Last edited by Blue; April 21st, 2017 at 08:47 AM.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 09:04 AM   #57

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Did Xi Jin Ping also say that Tibet, Yunnan & Xinjiang used to be independent, and not a part of China? Nope. Well, he forgot, I guess. And so did Donald.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 09:09 AM   #58
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Did Xi Jin Ping also say that Tibet, Yunnan & Xinjiang used to be independent, and not a part of China? Nope. Well, he forgot, I guess. And so did Donald.
Well, every part of China aside from these, used to belong to someone else.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ty_1000_BC.png
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Old April 21st, 2017, 09:49 AM   #59

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Originally Posted by Haakbus View Post
Northern parts of the peninsula were under Chinese rule from 107 BC to 313 AD.
After fall of Wiman Chosun, it's land was ruled by Han Chinese, but even Koreans in early Chosun Dynasty were debating where the actual location was. There were 3 theories with Northern Korea being the least likely scenario since there were no Han artifacts to support that. However, a single artifact supposedly dug up from Pyongyang surfaced during the Japanese rule. No other even remotely similar artifact surfaced since then. 200 years of rule under Han and only a single Han artifact found. Do you smell something here? Most likely Japanese planted this 'evidence' to manipulate the Korean history. We know a certain example of Japnese archeologist that Japanese are good at planting ancient artifacts as 'evidence'.

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Again western parts of the peninsula were under Chinese rule from 668-676.
I would not even consider this to be "under Chinese rule". After Silla-Tang alliance fell Goguryeo & Baekje, Tang army stayed behind briefly in Baekje region but driven out by Silla shortly after.

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Then Korea was under the Sino-Mongol Yuan rule from 1270-1356, with varying degrees of actual control. The northern regions were actually incorporated into the Yuan.
ROFL on Sino-Mongol part. Mongols treated Goryeo as brother nation. Mongol princess became wife to King of Goryeo. Sino Chinese were either enslaved or killed. Song population was nearly decimated. King of Goryeo was not only allowed rule his own country and even given title under Yuan court. Since Mongols did not trust Sino Chinese, all of the Yuan support staffs were of Goryeo origin. Empress Gi was from this support staff, and from Goryeo. So I would take the Sino- out of Sino-Mongol Yuan.

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Originally Posted by Haakbus View Post
I believe there was a brief period in the late 19th century where Korea was effectively under Chinese rule.
Quit believing and start producing some evidence.

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Originally Posted by Haakbus View Post
Other than these and the Japanese occupation from 1910-1945, Korea has never really been under foreign rule, which is pretty remarkable. Even then some of these instances were only regional.
I'm in agreement with your statement here. It's amazing how many hundreds of years Korean kingdoms lasted while Chinese Kingdom rose and fell within a single or only a few generations over control of 中原.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 09:55 AM   #60

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Traditionally China as been inward looking and reluctant to abandon ancient traditions. That began to change in the 19th century. The foreign Manchu C'hing Dynasty was already in decline when those nasty Europeans showed up with stronger military and technological ways of being attended to. The C'hing weren't especially loved by native Chinese, and the signs of a withdrawal of the Mandate were widely noted. Forced to open its ports to European trade, the C'hing were unable to resist unwanted incursions onto their sovereignty. Christian missionaries were protected by European guns. Europe wanted the high quality goods (ceramics, silk, etc.) that China was rightly famous for. Unfortunately, the C'hing didn't want to accept European currency. The "solution", and infamous one at that, was the introduction of opium cheaply produced in India. The Chinese became addicted in large numbers, and when the C'hing objected a little war was fought to "adjust the Emperess' attitude". In the backgound there the Secret Societies became more active, and small local rebellions increased in number and in seriousness. The Boxer Rebellion (Society of the Harmonius Fists) ended badly for the Manchus and for China. With the practical end of the Dynasty, a Western notion of self-government took root in Southern China. It was called the Komuntang, and was led by Dr. Sun Yat-sen, and idealist whose ideas found many supporters.

By 1920, the Russian version of Marxism was casting a shadow over the whole world. Out in Shanghai, a librarian became a Communist. Mao Tse-tung saw Communism as the future of human governments, and he opposed the Democratic Movement as a sellout to the West. Dr. Sun was replaced by a military war lord, Chiang Kai-Shek whose life focus was the utter destruction of the Communist Party, and with himself as the new Head of State. Madam Chiang, a Christian with strong ties to the U.S. was the mask behind which the Komuntang operated. Before Japan invaded China, the Communists were decidedly the under-dogs. The Communist Party survived by successfully completing the "Long March" escaping the KMT to find a strong hold in North Western China. Mao was the Political glue, and General Chu Teh was the mlitary leader, and both became legends as a result of the "Long March".

After Japan invaded, the US rushed volunteer pilots, money and materials to the KMT to keep them in the fight against the Japanese. Chiang's strategy was to let the Communists wear themselves out against the Chinese, while the Americans fought the war. The KMT held its forces back and rode rough shod over the suffering of the People. At the end of the War, the Communists were heroes and the KMT was wore black hats. Guess who the People preferred?

I think a key element in Communism is the strong belief that their universal triumph over all other systems is historically inevitable. That isn't inward looking with a conservative bias. The Communists rejected traditional culture and values of China as the evil they would replace with a soviet style modern State. Mao believed in continual and perpetual revolution, and when he believed the CCP was going "soft" he led the Cultural Revolution that dethroned the new elites ... well, those Mao didn't care for. The Cultural Revolution was a failure, just has his program of backyard furnaces producing high-quality steel was a failure. His system of collective farming never really caught on, and famine resulted. By the time Mao died, the winds of change were picking up. The Soviet Union was showing wear and cracks, and the American's made overtures that would reduce hostilities based on ideology. China began to loosen its centralized controlls, but only slightly and very slowly. The CCP has evolved into an oligarchy whose leaders still hold important positions, but the mind-set has also evolved. In recent years, China has used its newly resuscitate economic to look outward to a world where every nation and Peoples are part of a complex global society/economy. Traditionally China regarded itself as the only civilized People in the world, and now it seems they see the world as a possible extension of China. Or ... maybe not. The real thoughts and intentions of the CCP leadership aren't exactly known by anyone, and perhaps not even by themselves.
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