Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:01 AM   #21
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2013
From: China
Posts: 4,916

Quote:
Originally Posted by reitia View Post
The brilliant T'ang Emperors who dedicated their efforts to peaceful pursuits and the harmonious progress of human beings
hmmm...
that is very romantic.
but that can be discussed.

let us not put education to that high level.
education in china is mainly about the sustainability of the society. the system starts early, with advantage and with limitations.

i think there is a tendency that people might give education and university too much romatic expectation.
that is why people arguing "first" but forget all the "second" "third"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
Anyone who knows anything about the Chinese educational system, from history or from the modern, would know that it is not an educational system at all but a system that instills a selected amount of knowledge into the candidates.

No outside thinking is allowed.
so...what is the "inside" thinking?........
first of all, i think any education system in any nation has their "favorite" stuff.
secondly, the "allowed" thing, i think there is no strict rules. but people's public opinion might create somewhat
thirdly, the imposed public opinions never add new ideas? that would be a wrong statement for any nation.
lastly, i don't think a thousands of years history of education can be described by one sentence as yours.

Last edited by heylouis; May 17th, 2017 at 07:12 AM.
heylouis is offline  
Remove Ads
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:16 AM   #22
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Italy
Posts: 956

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
Anyone who knows anything about the Chinese educational system, from history or from the modern, would know that it is not an educational system at all but a system that instills a selected amount of knowledge into the candidates.

No outside thinking is allowed.
I know very little about modern China; my specialties are ancient and medieval history.

Do you think that classical Chinese education was so despotic? Why? The evidence of classical Chinese poetry and prose literature reveals a powerful degree of freethinking and quite original concepts.
reitia is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:19 AM   #23

Naima's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: Venice
Posts: 1,615

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Depends on your definition of a "university". University of Bologna 1088 AD is the oldest to be called a "universitas", and seems to be the oldest to have all the elements that are part of modern universities - formal degeee granting, established curriculum, exams,. While rhe Daigakuryo met most of these elements, I don't thing*it granted formal degrees with a diploma. Did it have exams? Also, it seems that Daigakuryo was a one off institution. The medieval Europe univerisities were part of a chain of institutions, and professors could and did travel between univerisities. As a center for establishing new ideas and knowledge, as medieval univerisities did and modern universities do, and not just regurgitate existing ideas, I don't think Daigakuryo did. But it sounds liked Daigakuryo came close.

The direct origin of the modern university sytem, from India to America to Europe, came out from the medieval university, and fanous medieval universites like Oxford are still world leading institutions today. (Despite how nationalist in other lands would like to spin thing, the fact remains that modern universities across the globe, were following the European university structure.)

If you widen your definition to include essentially an institute of higher learning, there were a number of ancient institutes, but they were not universities in the modern sense. Taxila in the Indian subcontinent, Nalanda, and others.
This , the University was founded in Bologna and since then all modern universities are based upon that, all what was before were different teaching institutes that had not the same kind of organization and theoretics teached like today ones.
Naima is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:20 AM   #24
Suspended until May 15th, 2018
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,457

Quote:
Originally Posted by reitia View Post
Daigakuryo did not award scroll-diplomas tied with ribbons, no. But they assigned formal recognition of graduation to their students. I'm not sure what this recognition consisted of; but some tangible proof must have been given to the graduates.
What does "formal" recognition mean? Without a written diploma or other written document, how do we know they actually received any "formal" recognition? Can you provide the primary source that tells us that the students received "formal' recognition? The primary source might help explain what this "formal" recognition consisted of.

Aldo, did they have to pass any test, examinations to achieve graduation?
Bart Dale is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:25 AM   #25
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2013
From: China
Posts: 4,916

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Aldo, did they have to pass any test, examinations to achieve graduation?
i don't really know what is "first university" supposed to mean, but do you mean this test and exams are the core parts of the definition?

that really is loose standard....
heylouis is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:36 AM   #26
Suspended until May 15th, 2018
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,457

Quote:
Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
"school" is part of the political system at least since the western zhou.

not even to mention the warring states
We are not talking about schools in general, but universities, and institutes of higher learning.

As far I know, Chine never had anything like modern universities. When candidates studied for the Civil Service exams, they would go to institutes to study, but they were not anything like a modern university.

Answer me this - name 4 ancient or medieval noted scholars that were part of any Chinese "school". From the beginning, European medieval universities were more than places to regurgitate old knowledge, but places to debate new ideas, and noted scholars/scientist/philosophers have been associated with European times since the Middle Ages. Galileo was a university professor of mathematics at Pisa, and Newton was also a professor at Cambridge. Please provide evidence of Chinese scientist of comparable caliber being instructors at any Chinese school.
Bart Dale is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:48 AM   #27
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2013
From: China
Posts: 4,916

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
We are not talking about schools in general, but universities, and institutes of higher learning.

As far I know, Chine never had anything like modern universities. When candidates studied for the Civil Service exams, they would go to institutes to study, but they were not anything like a modern university.

Answer me this - name 4 ancient or medieval noted scholars that were part of any Chinese "school". From the beginning, European medieval universities were more than places to regurgitate old knowledge, but places to debate new ideas, and noted scholars/scientist/philosophers have been associated with European times since the Middle Ages. Galileo was a university professor of mathematics at Pisa, and Newton was also a professor at Cambridge. Please provide evidence of Chinese scientist of comparable caliber being instructors at any Chinese school.
the poster i quoted talked about schools. my reply to the poster is hence about school too. is there anything surprising?

i did not intended to discuss about "first university", as i said i do not know what it really means.

but i found many problems in your reply as quoted here.
ancient china did not have modern universities, true. but which nation have modern universities before modern times?

in your last post you mentioned tests and exams, and i stated that is really a too loose standard.
in your current post, you mentioned debate, again a loose standard. all schools of warring state is about nothing but debate. also they all have lecturers.


notice about the basic fact, i am not trying to grab the honor of first university for china. as i stated, this is a romantic attempt. but its real weight and impact are going to be debated. and your loose standards do not give a sound conclusion.

Last edited by heylouis; May 17th, 2017 at 07:56 AM.
heylouis is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 07:48 AM   #28
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: Italy
Posts: 956

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
What does "formal" recognition mean? Without a written diploma or other written document, how do we know they actually received any "formal" recognition? Can you provide the primary source that tells us that the students received "formal' recognition? The primary source might help explain what this "formal" recognition consisted of.

Aldo, did they have to pass any test, examinations to achieve graduation?
Oh yes, there were several levels of examinations which they had to pass. The higher the civil service position sought, the more difficult were the exams. A considerable part of ancient Far Eastern literature deals precisely with students who were aspiring to government posts.

As I mentioned, I have no precise knowledge of what material form this recognition assumed. But, as graduates could not work in any level of the public administration without presenting proof of having passed all the required tests, it is certain that such recognition had been given to them so that they could display it to their new employers. Mere word of mouth would not have been accepted; I repeat, there must have been something tangible: a sealed document from the university, a badge, or similar. The ancient records that I am familiar with do not indicate what it was.
reitia is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 08:27 AM   #29

Aupmanyav's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: New Delhi, India
Posts: 2,487

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit View Post
Attock District - few miles to the West of Taxila. Between Formuli and Ghorghushti.
Then Hameed, Maihoo, Kamalpur Musa, Wasia (Wikimappia). Read somewhere (Cunningham), Gorgushti/Gorgushto may have been a Buddhist monastery (derived from Guru). Wikipedia states its history with Nawab Najabat Khan as if it did not exist before that.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; May 17th, 2017 at 08:32 AM.
Aupmanyav is offline  
Old May 17th, 2017, 08:39 AM   #30
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2013
From: China
Posts: 4,916

i would like to add something which i think would distinguish a university from others
1. it teaches, but it gives no implication about your future job position
2. it has non-exclusive rules about which courses to be taught. and indeed new courses were added during the time of the school
3. the lecturers may change. the teaching would not end because one or two lecturers leave
4. it last for some time, at least one decade
5. some mechanisms for certification. defense or exam


then plato's place does not fit because no clear certification mechanism is well established.
ancient chinese schools do not fit because the courses being taught change too slowly with time.
oxford does not fit until the colleges actually and properly integrate as one piece

Last edited by heylouis; May 17th, 2017 at 08:52 AM.
heylouis is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
university



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The oldest university in the world Vinnie Ancient History 122 August 3rd, 2016 07:10 AM
Roman world vs. Hellenistic world vs. "the Barbaric" world(Romans cripiled knowlege?) Mrbsct Ancient History 70 July 20th, 2016 01:44 AM
university !! dwahl01 New Users 12 October 2nd, 2009 08:22 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.