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Old May 17th, 2017, 12:52 PM   #41
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Of course, occasionally some academic sponsorship occured. Formal education did always continue in China, even under the most perilous circumstances such as An Lushan's rebellion. But I wonder how much of it might have been privately funded and organized.
China from Qin to Tang was not exactly favourable to private organizations. Ji Kang, with just Seven Sages in Bamboo Grove, was executed.
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Old May 17th, 2017, 02:27 PM   #42
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The Kuo-tsu-chien (國子監) in Sui and T'ang China met all these criteria.

Yet this detracts the status of the University of Bologna as a university at founding, since before the second university existed, professors by definition cannot travel between universities, simply because only one existed.
Please provide sources that showed it granted formal written diplomas for degrees that cover set curriculum and subjects, and which was granted only after an examination of the student.



And, please provide examples of noted Chinese scholars who were on the faculty of Kuo-tsu-chien or any alleged Chinese university. As I showed, some of the greatest scientist in history were faculty on European universities, a claim pre- European contact China couldn't make.

Someone always has to be the first, but once the other universities arose, professors and students could and did travel between universities, a feature absent in other institutions of higher learning.

Europe had far more "universities" than the much larger, wealthy China, and unlike China, the medieval European universities are still around. As I said, the modern university system around the world was directly derived from the medieval European universities, and owes very little, if anything at all, to centers of learning like Kuo-tsu-chien or Taxila.

Last edited by Bart Dale; May 17th, 2017 at 03:40 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2017, 07:23 PM   #43

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Oldest university -The city of Timbuktu and the first university in the world
Number two morocco Fez city
Yeah, we must not forget that.
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Old May 17th, 2017, 07:39 PM   #44

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Depends on your definition of a "university". University of Bologna 1088 AD is the oldest to be called a "universitas", and seems to be the oldest to have all the elements that are part of modern universities - formal degeee granting, established curriculum, exams,. While rhe Daigakuryo met most of these elements, I don't thing*it granted formal degrees with a diploma. Did it have exams? Also, it seems that Daigakuryo was a one off institution. The medieval Europe univerisities were part of a chain of institutions, and professors could and did travel between univerisities. As a center for establishing new ideas and knowledge, as medieval univerisities did and modern universities do, and not just regurgitate existing ideas, I don't think Daigakuryo did. But it sounds liked Daigakuryo came close.

The direct origin of the modern university sytem, from India to America to Europe, came out from the medieval university, and fanous medieval universites like Oxford are still world leading institutions today. (Despite how nationalist in other lands would like to spin thing, the fact remains that modern universities across the globe, were following the European university structure.)

If you widen your definition to include essentially an institute of higher learning, there were a number of ancient institutes, but they were not universities in the modern sense. Taxila in the Indian subcontinent, Nalanda, and others.
You know, except the Πανδιδακτήριον founded in 425 AD by Theodosius II in Constantinople which taught Law, Medicine, Arithmetic, Geometry, Astronomy, Rhetoric, Music and Philosophy, as well as Latin and Greek. It came under church management in 1204 and was reestablished in 1453 as Istanbul University by Mehmet II. It's arguably the oldest continuously operated University in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...Constantinople

The only thing that might disqualify it is that it lacked the corporative student structure the Universitas of Bologna had.

Damn Romans, doing everything first before anyone else but usually just not quite perfect enough to be unarguably called the first to do it...
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Old May 17th, 2017, 11:46 PM   #45
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Please provide sources that showed it granted formal written diplomas for degrees that cover set curriculum and subjects, and which was granted only after an examination of the student.
When did University of Paris start issuing individual written diplomas?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #46
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China from Qin to Tang was not exactly favourable to private organizations. Ji Kang, with just Seven Sages in Bamboo Grove, was executed.
but your example is not convincing. ji kang, a man who tried to devote the loyalty to the cao family, is executed because he dangered the political position of the sima family, not because of private organizations.

private schools were not rare in china. but what limits them is not the private-public relationship, it is about the public pressure on which to be taught with "profit"

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And, please provide examples of noted Chinese scholars who were on the faculty of Kuo-tsu-chien or any alleged Chinese university. As I showed, some of the greatest scientist in history were faculty on European universities, a claim pre- European contact China couldn't make.
your standard still is problematic.

first, you intentionally replaced the concept of university to serve your purpose that universities only create "scientists". however, even the notable european universities started as religious studying place, and laws alike. all aspects of natural science were added later.
second, you limited the history as european taught history. i can name two chinese scientists, zhang heng, who entered the official history department, which taught not only history but also math and astronomy. and then shenkuo, is a member of Hanlin, again an institute. sure not familar names for europe.

as I repeatedly stated, your standards are very loose and biased.
what i proposed, that the university shall not bind the study with job positions and other terms would exclude ancient chinese academic institute from universities. but not for the false reaons, such as "no sound individuals".
and what i proposed would call for a clarification for the earliest organizations which were named as universities later, what are their true natures? are they really the same organization as the later developed ones? i keep doubt.

Last edited by heylouis; May 18th, 2017 at 01:12 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 05:44 AM   #47
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Its pretty hard to get information on the Imperial Academy of Luoyang, a lot of it is behind academic paywalls.

This can give some good basic information.

Thanks for this article. It reveals that ancient China had quite a few centres of higher learning..."universities", if you will...and that professors were considered worthy of holding government positions. I wonder how powerful the ancient and medieval Chinese intelligentsia really became. The text you sent indicates, at any rate, that some of the professors had a bothersome inclination for meddling in politics!
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Old May 18th, 2017, 05:47 AM   #48
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[QUOTE=heylouis;2754121]but your example is not convincing. ji kang, a man who tried to devote the loyalty to the cao family, is executed because he dangered the political position of the sima family, not because of private organizations.

private schools were not rare in china. but what limits them is not the private-public relationship, it is about the public pressure on which to be taught with "profit"



your standard still is problematic.

first, you intentionally replaced the concept of university to serve your purpose that universities only create "scientists". however, even the notable european universities started as religious studying place, and laws alike. all aspects of natural science were added later.
second, you limited the history as european taught history. i can name two chinese scientists, zhang heng, who entered the official history department, which taught not only history but also math and astronomy. and then shenkuo, is a member of Hanlin, again an institute. sure not familar names for europe.



These are excellent, well-reasoned remarks.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 05:55 AM   #49
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You know, except the Πανδιδακτήριον founded in 425 AD by Theodosius II in Constantinople which taught Law, Medicine, Arithmetic, Geometry, Astronomy, Rhetoric, Music and Philosophy, as well as Latin and Greek. It came under church management in 1204 and was reestablished in 1453 as Istanbul University by Mehmet II. It's arguably the oldest continuously operated University in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univer...Constantinople

The only thing that might disqualify it is that it lacked the corporative student structure the Universitas of Bologna had.

Damn Romans, doing everything first before anyone else but usually just not quite perfect enough to be unarguably called the first to do it...

Thanks for sending this fine, very interesting article. It's especially significant that female participation in Byzantine higher education was by no means negligible. The fact that the main purpose of this Byzantine proto-university was to train talented youths for civil and religious service puts it more or less on a par with contemporary Chinese institutions that professed the same aim.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 07:56 AM   #50
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private schools were not rare in china. but what limits them is not the private-public relationship, it is about the public pressure on which to be taught with "profit"
Private academies in China started to flourish from Song dynasty.
Likely due to expansion of examinations - inter alia. Song dynasty also had other signs of breakdown of state control.
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