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Old May 18th, 2017, 08:13 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Private academies in China started to flourish from Song dynasty.
Likely due to expansion of examinations - inter alia. Song dynasty also had other signs of breakdown of state control.
i take examples to disprove this.
confucious is pretty a private lecturer.
the correct version of shangshu is distributed by a civilian family.
liubei, a nobody person until he enters his mid ages, had studied with luzhi and zhengxuan.
tang's private schools turned buddhism into a chinese religion

书院/shuyuan is a form of private academics which flourish start from song. but there are many forms of private academics.
shuyuan in many ways look like a university, just with the lack of evolution on natural science.

Last edited by heylouis; May 18th, 2017 at 08:18 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 08:48 AM   #52
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i take examples to disprove this.
confucious is pretty a private lecturer.
the correct version of shangshu is distributed by a civilian family.
liubei, a nobody person until he enters his mid ages, had studied with luzhi and zhengxuan.
tang's private schools turned buddhism into a chinese religion

书院/shuyuan is a form of private academics which flourish start from song. but there are many forms of private academics.
shuyuan in many ways look like a university, just with the lack of evolution on natural science.

This is interesting information, heylouis. Could young men who had studied in private academies or with tutors go on to become high-ranking civil servants? Or was public administration reserved only for graduates of the public universities?

What about Chinese women in ancient and medieval times? Could they be admitted to the universities, or to any public schools at all? Were there private academies which accepted girls or women as students? Could females teach in either public or private schools?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:22 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
but your example is not convincing. ji kang, a man who tried to devote the loyalty to the cao family, is executed because he dangered the political position of the sima family, not because of private organizations.

private schools were not rare in china. but what limits them is not the private-public relationship, it is about the public pressure on which to be taught with "profit"



your standard still is problematic.

first, you intentionally replaced the concept of university to serve your purpose that universities only create "scientists". however, even the notable european universities started as religious studying place, and laws alike. all aspects of natural science were added later.
second, you limited the history as european taught history. i can name two chinese scientists, zhang heng, who entered the official history department, which taught not only history but also math and astronomy. and then shenkuo, is a member of Hanlin, again an institute. sure not familar names for europe.

as I repeatedly stated, your standards are very loose and biased.
what i proposed, that the university shall not bind the study with job positions and other terms would exclude ancient chinese academic institute from universities. but not for the false reaons, such as "no sound individuals".
and what i proposed would call for a clarification for the earliest organizations which were named as universities later, what are their true natures? are they really the same organization as the later developed ones? i keep doubt.
The opposite is true of what you say. My definition are specific and are the features of modern universitie

You, on the other, have provided no standard or features of what you believe a university to be. Please provide your definition of what you think compromises a university.

And the Hanlin was not a university, it did not grant degrees nor was teaching students one of its functions. Rather, it was more like the Royal Society or the much earlier Museum of the Lubrary of Alexander.

PS - I cannot find any evidence that Zheng Heng taught at any institute of higher learning. Please name the institute you mentioned that he supposedlu taught at.

Last edited by Bart Dale; May 18th, 2017 at 09:28 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #54
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This is interesting information, heylouis. Could young men who had studied in private academies or with tutors go on to become high-ranking civil servants? Or was public administration reserved only for graduates of the public universities?

What about Chinese women in ancient and medieval times? Could they be admitted to the universities, or to any public schools at all? Were there private academies which accepted girls or women as students? Could females teach in either public or private schools?
there is no official school for females.
private schools for females is a difficult topic i cannot comment. but certainly not as good as males.

i never said there were true universities in ancient china. there is no equivalent of degree certification.
official positions are given either depend on recommendation or on exams.

but, anyway, even in nowadays, degree means little to government job seekers, if they cannot pass the entrance exams.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:27 AM   #55
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The opposite is true of what you say. My definition are specific and are the features of modern universitie

You, on the other, have provided no standard or features of what you believe a university to be. Please provide your definition of what you think compromises a university.

And the Hanlin was not a university, it did not grant degrees nor was teaching students one of its functions. Rather, it was more like the Royal Society or the much earlier Museum of the Lubrary of Alexander.
two pages earlier, i gave my standards.

hanlin's function changes with time. for shenkuo's time, it still teaches.

so far, you listed
1. test or exam
2. debate
3. famous figures
the combination of those cannot properly define a university. because ancient chinese academics can easily fit those.

zhangheng was enrolled in taishi, a organization which he later took charge of. taishi is basicly the proto hanlin and sitian.

Last edited by heylouis; May 18th, 2017 at 09:37 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:36 AM   #56
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This is interesting information, heylouis. Could young men who had studied in private academies or with tutors go on to become high-ranking civil servants? Or was public administration reserved only for graduates of the public universities?
By Qing dynasty... formally, yes. Practically, not really... it wasn´t possible to learn in public universities.

Throughout Ming and Qing dynasties, there were official, government-run universities in every county of China - around 1300 of them.
The number of officially employed "teachers" in each was four.
The number of students (shengyuan) was about 50 000 in early 15th century - thus around 40 average - and had bloated to over 500 000 by early 17th century... thereafter staying around that level.
The actual volume of instruction offered in the official county universities, by 18th century, was 1 lecture per month.
That was not a way to learn a subject. The students naturally had to study elsewhere, whether independently, under tutors or in a private school.
But they were not allowed to skip that one lecture per month. There was a test each season on the topic of the three lectures of the season. And failing to attend the tests for a year was grounds for expulsion.

So yes. A shengyuan, in order to get into juren examinations and have a chance to pass, needed to be enrolled in some government school and give it the minimal formal level of attendance that was required.

When did county universities teach more than one lecture per month?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 10:27 AM   #57
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By Qing dynasty... formally, yes. Practically, not really... it wasn´t possible to learn in public universities.

Throughout Ming and Qing dynasties, there were official, government-run universities in every county of China - around 1300 of them.
The number of officially employed "teachers" in each was four.
The number of students (shengyuan) was about 50 000 in early 15th century - thus around 40 average - and had bloated to over 500 000 by early 17th century... thereafter staying around that level.
The actual volume of instruction offered in the official county universities, by 18th century, was 1 lecture per month.
That was not a way to learn a subject. The students naturally had to study elsewhere, whether independently, under tutors or in a private school.
But they were not allowed to skip that one lecture per month. There was a test each season on the topic of the three lectures of the season. And failing to attend the tests for a year was grounds for expulsion.

So yes. A shengyuan, in order to get into juren examinations and have a chance to pass, needed to be enrolled in some government school and give it the minimal formal level of attendance that was required.

When did county universities teach more than one lecture per month?

Did grants and scholarships exist in ancient China? Could talented poor boys...or girls...achieve a high-level formal education?

What about Emperors' sons? Were they required to go to an academy or university? If so, did it have to be public?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 11:41 AM   #58
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Did grants and scholarships exist in ancient China? Could talented poor boys...or girls...achieve a high-level formal education?
Scholarships did exist. Such as "linshan shengyuan".
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Old May 18th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #59

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Yeah, we must not forget that.

Friend others can forget, but I do not forget because my country is neighbor and we are close to did.
Only stay in europe
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Old May 18th, 2017, 03:01 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by heylouis View Post
two pages earlier, i gave my standards.

hanlin's function changes with time. for shenkuo's time, it still teaches.

so far, you listed
1. test or exam
2. debate
3. famous figures
the combination of those cannot properly define a university. because ancient chinese academics can easily fit those.

zhangheng was enrolled in taishi, a organization which he later took charge of. taishi is basicly the proto hanlin and sitian.
Provide evidence that the Hanlin was teaching students, I find no mention of it.

And you seem to have ignored or misunderstoond what I said.

A university has the following features:

1. A university teaches to a specific curriculum or on a specific subject. Your definition failed to include this criteria, that it had to be on a specific curriculum or field of study.

And while I didn't say it earlier, the study of the curriculum or subject must be deep enough to require hears of study to master.

2. It awards a formal degree with written certification (diploma) for that study on the specific curriculum or subject,

3. The degee is awarded only after passing an examination or test

4. Another feature that it allows ideas and thoughts to be freely exchanged. Maybe not all universities have this China, but the best ones, the ones that matter, will.

5. Universities have a corporate structure - they are corporations, with a collective structure, not just a one man's personal show. The concept of the corpoeation is a very powerful invention where the Chinese seriously lagged behind the west. A corporation, although composed of many individuals, can act and operate as if it were a single real person - it can own and sell property, sign contracta just as a real person could, and can be fined just as a person, and assests seized. Thus a corporation can last beyond one individual or a group of individual's life time

The corporate nature of the university gives them an degee of independence. While they might fall under rule of a given authority, their corporated identity gives them a degree of freedom to resist the imposition of arbritrary rules and push back on rules they feel are contrary to the interest of the university, helping promote some measure of academic freedom in a way an individual could not.


As far as your claims for Hanlin goes, I find not support for your claimd that it was a teaching organization at one time, and taught students. Can you provide sources that show it to be teaching students and passing out degrees?

Nor could I find ZhangHeng teaching students at an institute as you claim. The closest I found was he was invovled in creating the Civil Service exam, but that is not teaching. Again, could you providr sources?

Also, I did not say iniversities had famous people, I said in European universities had famous scientist and scholars, a very different thing. Paris Hilton is a famous person, Newton is a famous scientist, they are not the same as you imply. The point with the scientist was that modern universities and the medieval European universities, were centers of the creation of new ideas and discoveries in a way that the Chinese were not. Instead, Chinese institutes of learning just regurgitate the tired old ideas of the past, and produce men like the prominent and respected Chinese scholar who insisted the world was flat depsite people having actually sailed around it by his time! The medieval European universities became centers of the creation of ideas and new discoveries that radically changed the world, which is why everyone wants to claim credit for their invention. If the only centers of learning ("universities") were like Chinese ones, producing students who still thought the world was flat 2,000 years after their contemporaries figured out the world was a sphere, and even after the people sailed around the world, then nobody would be eager to claim to have invented them.

Last edited by Bart Dale; May 18th, 2017 at 03:30 PM.
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