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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #1441

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I find I was in error. Is there any evidence of migration either into or out of India? We are told that there is no evidence of migration of Aryans into India, but is there any evidence of the reverse, of IVC or other cultures out of India to the west?

The Mitanni in the Middle East I understand share many cultural similarities with Vedic culture of India, but is there any direct evidence that the culture was due to migrants from India?
That's the itchy bit. There's not much evidence either way. There's some stray evidence of IVC Material in sites such as Shortugai in Afghanistan which some have indicated might mean a limited movement West but most others think only points to trade and not much more. Not clear post Harappan culture in the west is known.

Into India similarly has its own problems as has been discussed here. There is reason to see some degree of archaeological movement but others dispute it. We don't see the sort of clean linkages with IE cultures as we do with the IVC movement East and South.

Part of the problem is that much of this evidence, regardless of direction, would be in Afghanistan which has spent more time as a conflict zone than not. Doing survey archaeology of the sort that is done with the IVC isn't easy. Especially when fanatical locals want erase whatever non Islamic remains you do find.

The final archaeological validation for a migration would lie in the evidence from Afghanistan. Till we get it we need to try and project over a broken chain
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Old September 13th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #1442

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The final clash between these two at the Ravi river (Ten Kings War) led to victory for the Purus thanks to horse, chariots and superior (iron age) weaponry.

There is some speculation that the King that Alexander defeated, King Porus, is in fact the name of the dominant tribe in the Punjab at the time ie the Purus.


Also is there anything in the Rig Veda that indicates that Aryans are entering a land of abandoned, derelict cities?
Definitely no horse, chariot or 'iron age' weaponry helped in the 'Battle of Ten Kings'. It was Indra who helped the 'Trtsu' (and not Puru) king by bringing up a flood in River Ravi which scattered his foe. Rainy season, a wrong time for military activities in India.

Porus fought bravely but was roundly defeated by Alex, a better commander and his experienced army.

There is nothing in RigVeda indicating that Aryans entered abandoned or direlict cities.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; September 13th, 2017 at 09:13 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 07:43 AM   #1443
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Nice posts, Peccavi.
+1 informative for what i was reading...
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Old September 14th, 2017, 07:58 AM   #1444
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So this is more or less saying that 'Indians', or to be more accurate inhabitants of the Indian sub-continent, are milk-averse. That would be kind of illogical, becos from my own personal observation these guys are heavy consumers of milk.

I hv even often seen them, whether South Indians, Punjabis, Pakistanis or Bangladeshis, pour a big glass of fresh milk onto a full plate of rice, and happily lap up that plateful, just like that. The snacks, sweetmeats, condiments, puddings etc. that they make are also almost always loaded with milk. Not to mention some of their curry gravies.
milk usage in india came with aryan migration also for past 10k years only humans consume milk as their lactose tolerance increased.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #1445
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Similarly the movement of IE people from Caspian North to Central Asia and then to India is well documented by archaeology (Samara, Sintashta, Aral, Merv, Yaz, Af-India). But some people would not accept it for reasons other than history. Nothing much can be done about that.
Nothing much can be done about people who see Arctic in tropical regions either. There is a saying in Kannada - "Angaiyyalli benne hidkondu tuppakkaagi oorella aledaadidaru", meaning, people with butter in their hand searched throughout the city for clarified butter (this is made by heating butter).

This is exactly the case here where some posters are so zealous about quoting Samara, Sintashta, Timbaktu, etc.., as proof of that "elusive" Aryan invasion, while they curiously ignore the vast and one of the oldest civilizations - the IVC, which is most intuitively the material evidence of the Vedic culture!
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Old September 14th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #1446
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Vishwe amrtas is different from Amesha spentas. This is the trouble with the scholarship you rely on. They do not give you the correct picture.

In the word Kerenoti of Avestan, the sound 'e' (which is actually the 'a' sound in the word what), is used to expand a reduced from of Krnoti. This is the case in all of such words. Amesha is no different for it is Vedic Amsha, which means "part". There is no "immortal" here.

Spenta of Avestan is Vedic "Shvanta" meaning tranquil. Unfortunately the modern scholarship that you go gaga over, and one that is armed with so many "advancements", has not been able to figure this out yet.

By the way, the scholars you rave about have no clue about what is "ratush" of Avestan (they call it judgement), and what is "asha" of Avestan, and what it maps to in Vedic (some genius said there is nothing equivalent in Vedic, and it is absolutely not true).

An advaitist is not an atheist at all. I don't know what you are talking.
Amesha/Amsha meaning "part" is very interesting to me, as it seems to confirm what I have claimed previously: that the Amesha Spentas, far from being separate deities, are simply "parts" or aspects of the unique Avestan deity, Ahura Mazda.

Spenta/Shvanta, here translated as "tranquil", may also signify "passive", don't you think? Passive in the sense of being mere manifestations of the deity, dependant upon him, not independently active?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 10:16 PM   #1447
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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
Nothing much can be done about people who see Arctic in tropical regions either. There is a saying in Kannada - "Angaiyyalli benne hidkondu tuppakkaagi oorella aledaadidaru", meaning, people with butter in their hand searched throughout the city for clarified butter (this is made by heating butter).

This is exactly the case here where some posters are so zealous about quoting Samara, Sintashta, Timbaktu, etc.., as proof of that "elusive" Aryan invasion, while they curiously ignore the vast and one of the oldest civilizations - the IVC, which is most intuitively the material evidence of the Vedic culture!
Yeah i can totally picturize naked aryans riding horses and chariots in the sweltering heat and humidity of north india. And then influencing languages all the way to scandinavia but forgeting what lied to south of vindhyas or east of assam. So according to you the aryans must be looking more or less like our union cabinet of ministers today right?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #1448
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As per RigVeda when Night (Goddess - Ratri) went and Dawn (Goddesses - 30 Ushas) came and, Sun (God - Mitra, Aditya) was released from the clutches of demons by the valor of one of these Gods (Indra generally and Agni, Soma, Ashwins, Vishnu, etc. occasionally), so talking of one God is not tenable.You are being biased, Reitia. This is from Wikiedia article on Amesha Spenta, and the quotes are from Gatha and Yasna, two of their older books, and has nothing to do with Indian Parsis/Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism is monotheistic but the polytheistic background shows up, which is surprisingly close to RigVeda.
Biased about what, Aupmanyav? I can claim to have studied Mazdaism and Zoroastrianism...in all their varieties...as profoundly as you have researched Hinduism. When I speak of the monotheism of the Avesta, I am referring to an established historical reality, a REFORM undertaken by Zarathushtra in order to bring Mazdaism back to its original belief in ONE GOD.

You cite the Rig Veda, which is unquestionably ancient; but when I speak of primordial Aryan monotheism I am referring to an era long before the Vedas: the formative period of Indo-European culture, before polytheism, when the concept of the unique creator deity Dyaus Piter would have prevailed.

Please remember that the names of both Zeus and Jupiter derive from Dyaus Piter. Many ancient Greeks and Romans, similar to the Hindus who have embraced Brahman, believed in this Father-God as the only deity, who contains within himself and manifests numerous attributes which polytheists interpret as separate deities.

This is not meant, by any means, as a criticism of polytheistic Hinduism, my friend! Please don't misunderstand me. I am speaking only in terms of different historical interpretations of Godhead throughout the millenia.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 10:53 PM   #1449
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Originally Posted by Aatreya View Post
Nothing much can be done about people who see Arctic in tropical regions either. There is a saying in Kannada - "Angaiyyalli benne hidkondu tuppakkaagi oorella aledaadidaru", meaning, people with butter in their hand searched throughout the city for clarified butter (this is made by heating butter).

This is exactly the case here where some posters are so zealous about quoting Samara, Sintashta, Timbaktu, etc.., as proof of that "elusive" Aryan invasion, while they curiously ignore the vast and one of the oldest civilizations - the IVC, which is most intuitively the material evidence of the Vedic culture!
>>There is a saying in Kannada - "Angaiyyalli benne hidkondu tuppakkaagi oorella aledaadidaru"

Where are the Kannada words in that saying ?
angai <-> Sanskrit anga ?
benne/yennei <-> Sanskrit agnei (ghee/oil) ?
tuppa <-> Sanskrit tanUnapa (ghee)?
ooru <-> Sanskrit aavarah (fortress) ?
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Old September 15th, 2017, 12:51 AM   #1450
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Definitely no horse, chariot or 'iron age' weaponry helped in the 'Battle of Ten Kings'. It was Indra who helped the 'Trtsu' (and not Puru) king by bringing up a flood in River Ravi which scattered his foe. Rainy season, a wrong time for military activities in India.

Porus fought bravely but was roundly defeated by Alex, a better commander and his experienced army.

There is nothing in RigVeda indicating that Aryans entered abandoned or direlict cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Hydaspes

I think you are wrong.

At the battle of Hydaspes, Porus employed 1000 chariots and 4000 cavalry (by this time chariots were obsolete in Greek warfare) plus a 100 elephants.

Chariots were, of course, more effective in earlier periods.

Anyway it is no shame to lose to the most formidable military machine the world had seen until that time, built by Philip of Macedon and brilliantly used by his son.

The Greeks admired the courage of the Aryans and Alexander installed Porus as this Satrap for the area in the Punjab.
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