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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:00 PM   #11

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Nobunaga was more than just a warrior, he was also a great statesman, a man of culture, and he was probably one of the few to centralized political power in Japan for quite a while. Unlike Hideyoshi and Ieyasu who kept the bakafu (Hideyoshi tried his best to be adopted into a clan that was capable of establishing a bakafu but failed thus he tried a different approach, and that may have succeeded if his children were older. In fact, had he not kill his nephew, it would be so much more difficult for Ieyasu to pull his own trick.) whereas Nobunaga seems to favor a far more centralized approach.

And Nobunaga wasn't exceptionally cruel, he was just cruel without favorites. His actions by themselves weren't uniquely different, it was simply who was exempt from it from the other lords.
Yes, he was a skilled administrator as well but i don"t feel that he had as much time and opportunities to really build a "state" and a long-lasting system in the way his successors did, ieyasu borrowing a lot of elements from Hideyoshi. In this sense, his work was unfinished.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:08 PM   #12

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Yes, he was a skilled administrator as well but i don"t feel that he had as much time and opportunities to really build a "state" and a long-lasting system in the way his successors did, ieyasu borrowing a lot of elements from Hideyoshi. In this sense, his work was unfinished.
Nobunaga had the opportunity but not the time - he died before he could complete his unification. What he did though was build the foundation of a power base for Hideyoshi to complete the job,

Ieyasu is considered one of the unifiers, but in all honesty, he didn't do that much unifying. The country had already been completely unified under Hideyoshi, and Ieyasu simply usurped power.

By the time of Nobunaga's death though, there were still powerful forces who *could* have defeated him. Had the daimyo of the Kanto united rather than spent their time squabbling with each other, a Takeda-Hojo-Uesugi alliance could have overwhelmed him - but Shingen, Kenshin and Ujiyasu were all dead, Hojo Ujimasa was retired and Takeda Katsuyori and Hojo Ujinao were incompetent.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:59 PM   #13
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I'm assuming you mean Asai Nagamasa, his brother-in-law.

He had his sister Oichi (for the benefit of readers, Oichi was Nobunaga's sister) betray the whereabouts of the boy (who was 10), then had him executed and his head displayed on a stake. Manpukumaru may, in fact, have been Oichi's son (although this is uncertain), which would have made Nobunaga his uncle.

Nobunaga had gilded drinking cups made out of Asai Nagamasa and his father Hisamasa's skulls. What a present to show his sister.

"Hey, Oichi, look who we have for dinner tonight!"
Yes sir.

Although I don't honestly believe the boy was Oichi's child. If Asai's heir is indeed Nobunaga's nephew, I believe Oichi would have a lot more voice involved in the Nagamasa conference. I think Asai was half and half on whether to attack or not, and that the lords were simply too strong for him to overcome (that may be some revisionist modern historian's take, I don't study Japanese history I just read third or fourth hand accounts) but if Asai's child is Oichi, I think his case could be stronger no?

But yah, Nobunaga was a pretty big *******, I think Japanese culture even that time believed that when someone dies, everything moves on. Few people hold a grudge against their corpse.

I believe Mitsuhide actually refused to drink from that cup?
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Old September 5th, 2017, 04:05 PM   #14
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Nobunaga had the opportunity but not the time - he died before he could complete his unification. What he did though was build the foundation of a power base for Hideyoshi to complete the job,

Ieyasu is considered one of the unifiers, but in all honesty, he didn't do that much unifying. The country had already been completely unified under Hideyoshi, and Ieyasu simply usurped power.

By the time of Nobunaga's death though, there were still powerful forces who *could* have defeated him. Had the daimyo of the Kanto united rather than spent their time squabbling with each other, a Takeda-Hojo-Uesugi alliance could have overwhelmed him - but Shingen, Kenshin and Ujiyasu were all dead, Hojo Ujimasa was retired and Takeda Katsuyori and Hojo Ujinao were incompetent.
Kanto can't defeat Nobunaga simply because of logistic issues. I think 1/4 of the year you can't even move troops. So then we are talking about once snow melt, you march your army all the way out to defend Uesugi territory, and by the time you get there, it would be 4 month gone, give or take. Then you gota go home to tend your land because well, it's almost summer.

I think Takeda-Hojo-Uesugi wouldn't work either simply because that was a defensive alliance. Hojo have no real reason to fight Nobunaga, Hojo's focus was more their regional things, expanding their own influences etc. Their biggest contribution would be promising not to attack someone else.

Uesugi will not be able to hold an alliance with the Hojo anyways (effectively at least) and Takeda also will have issues due to how the Uesugi succession carried out. If neither the Hojo nor Takeda leaders are emotional children than maybe, but they are, and I don't imagine they can resolve it.

The only way Nobunaga fail is if someone assassinat him.

His power relatively to others are simply too strong already. The commerce base he have built at that point will simply out produce everyone else' combine (I think, I read somewhere on the commercial activity under Nobunaga vs everyone else) and if we are talking about the ability to gather enough supplies and guns, then Nobunaga is simply going to win everything. Every setback is merely a delay. While every victory is a crushing blow to everyone else's belief that the old system can remain.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 04:16 PM   #15

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Kenshin had adopted a son of Hojo Ujiyasu as Uesugi Kagetora. I think a Hojo/Uesugi alliance would have been possible. The Uesugi's route to Nobunaga lay through Kaga (and that's indeed the direction that Kenshin was taking just prior to his death).

The key would have been for the Uesugi and Takeda to stop fighting for long enough to attack Nobunaga on two fronts, on the north and south respectively. The Hojo contribution to the alliance would have been to stay put and not attack those two clans from behind.

As history demonstrates - the Hojo really should have opposed Nobunaga sooner!
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Old September 5th, 2017, 05:06 PM   #16
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Kenshin had adopted a son of Hojo Ujiyasu as Uesugi Kagetora. I think a Hojo/Uesugi alliance would have been possible. The Uesugi's route to Nobunaga lay through Kaga (and that's indeed the direction that Kenshin was taking just prior to his death).

The key would have been for the Uesugi and Takeda to stop fighting for long enough to attack Nobunaga on two fronts, on the north and south respectively. The Hojo contribution to the alliance would have been to stay put and not attack those two clans from behind.

As history demonstrates - the Hojo really should have opposed Nobunaga sooner!
So we are talking about before Kenshin dies?

Because Kagetora was killed with help from Takeda, and the Hojos almost never forgiven them for it. (If my memory is correct.)

The issue with the two prong from Takeda and Usegui for me was simply their leaders. Shingen was something that Kenshin hated in every aspect, every quality of him. Shingen knows that. I don't think for one moment either one of them would have trusted each other for a coordinated attack.

So the only opportunity would be after Shingen dies. But once Shingen died, his kid was left with a powerful warrior caste who were experienced and proven, whereas he was just a favorite son. He would require years and years of consolidation to have full mastery of his territory. I think one reason Takeda failed so rapidly was how great Shingen was, and how much of the shoes were left to fill. His children must be able to lead the Takeda to victory to have much voice, but great victory comes from careful planning and preparation, which.... well.....

I think their best bet was before Oda defeated Asai's alliance. Shingen need to get the Shogun's blessing and convince Usegi to bugger off for like a year. With enough promise from the Shogun, maybe Usegi can be convinced to have a cease fire and allow the Takeda to come out of their mountains?

But once Nobunaga survived the Asai-Asakura (I mean, had the Asakura been a bit smart, they wouldn't have just left after Anegawa) I don't imagine anyone else can do much. I suppose there were once more when he was in a bit of trouble, but Asai-Asakura was the best shot to get rid of him.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 04:10 AM   #17

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It would have had to have happened while Kenshin was still alive. After his death, Kagekatsu defeated Kagetora, which would have put an end to that avenue of alliance.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #18

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What would the troop numbers be for Nobunaga's army at the time and a potential Hojo/Takeda/Uesugi alliance?

How did Nobunaga go from a force size of 2-3,000 during the Battle of Okehazama, to a force capable of nearly unifying Japan?
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:04 AM   #19
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What would the troop numbers be for Nobunaga's army at the time and a potential Hojo/Takeda/Uesugi alliance?

How did Nobunaga go from a force size of 2-3,000 during the Battle of Okehazama, to a force capable of nearly unifying Japan?
In terms of Kokudaka around Honnoji

Oda clan has 8.47m
Uesugi .94m
Mori 1.12m
Tokugawa .8m
Hojo don't use the traditional kokudaka but they have around 20,000 or a bit more.

So some of Takeda has been absorbed by Oda some by Tokugawa, but as you can see, Oda has an overwhelming advantage in terms of manpower and economic power. Oda had also absorb a few other fiefs but overall I think

The only issue is whether or not the Takeda & Uesugi's superior military leadership and superior cavalry can chip away at Oda's advantage.


***EDIT rough estimation but around the target

Last edited by mariusj; September 6th, 2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:06 AM   #20

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The only issue is whether or not the Takeda & Uesugi's superior military leadership and superior cavalry can chip away at Oda's advantage.
Why do you feel the Takeda and Uesugi were superior generals?
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