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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:09 AM   #21
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Why do you feel the Takeda and Uesugi were superior generals?
Because Nobunaga lost every battle against Kenshin & Shingen? And even after Kenshin's death, Nobunaga's commanders have issue with his heir and the Uesugi army.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #22

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Because Nobunaga lost every battle against Kenshin & Shingen? And even after Kenshin's death, Nobunaga's commanders have issue with his heir and the Uesugi army.
Nobunaga's forces only met each daimyo once - Shingen at Mikatagahara and Kenshin at Tedorigawa. Ieyasu was at Mikatagahara and Nobunaga himself, Shibata and Hideyoshi were at Tedorigawa. They lost both battles, but Shingen and Kenshin died not long after.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #23

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In terms of Kokudaka around Honnoji

Oda clan has 8.47m
Uesugi .94m
Mori 1.12m
Tokugawa .8m
Hojo don't use the traditional kokudaka but they have around 20,000 or a bit more.

So some of Takeda has been absorbed by Oda some by Tokugawa, but as you can see, Oda has an overwhelming advantage in terms of manpower and economic power. Oda had also absorb a few other fiefs but overall I think

The only issue is whether or not the Takeda & Uesugi's superior military leadership and superior cavalry can chip away at Oda's advantage.


***EDIT rough estimation but around the target
Kenshin had begun to take Kaga, the million-koku domain by the time of his death. Given a few years, he could have perhaps built up a domain to rival Nobunaga.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:01 AM   #24

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Maybe a Takeda, Uesugi alliance would have been a success if Shingen had lived longer. Both clans were part of the second anti Nobunaga league after Shingen's death and I don't see Shingen living longer changing that. What Shingen might have changed is the outcome of Nagashino which would leave the Takeda in a much stronger position.

Nobunaga's biographer notes that putting Kenshin in the same alliance as the monks of Kaga was already a great diplomatic feat of the Shogunate so his nasty history with Shingen might not have stood in the way of an alliance either.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:16 AM   #25

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I would like to know how Nobunaga managed to enlargen his military force from 2,000-3,000 in the battle of Okehazma to the 8.47m kokudaka mariusj mentions.

About how many soldiers could be raised per 1m (million?) kokudaka?

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Because Nobunaga lost every battle against Kenshin & Shingen? And even after Kenshin's death, Nobunaga's commanders have issue with his heir and the Uesugi army.
My knowledge of Japanese history is very weak. I didn't mean to argue.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #26
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Kenshin had begun to take Kaga, the million-koku domain by the time of his death. Given a few years, he could have perhaps built up a domain to rival Nobunaga.
One issue I believe that Kenshin was a bit desperate was that his gold mines began to dry up. He would have a very difficult time to match in terms of production when he can feasibly began to consolidate Kaga.

Without illness he probably could have done a lot more, but that's because I give his charisma and military leadership so much more bonus than his actual strategic positions. I can see people hear the tiger is coming to town, and people might have remain neutral or not put all their eggs in the Oda basket. But just on positions of how much money, how much food, and how many man the Takeda can raise and maintain against Oda I wonder.

Another thing is I believe Oda has already separated troops from farmer at this point? I can't remember off the top of my head if it's around this period. If that was the case, the Tadeka position, and everyone else, deterior even further. Nobunaga can just raid whoever he wants in the harvest season and planting season.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 11:39 AM   #27
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I would like to know how Nobunaga managed to enlargen his military force from 2,000-3,000 in the battle of Okehazma to the 8.47m kokudaka mariusj mentions.

About how many soldiers could be raised per 1m (million?) kokudaka?



My knowledge of Japanese history is very weak. I didn't mean to argue.
I think 5 koku will feed 1 grown man? I think if they are fighting on their own turf, you can realistically raise 400-600 per 10k koku?

When Hideyoshi prepare for his invasion of Korea, he demanded 600/10k koku for Kyushu, and 400 for Kinai. Under Tokugawa I believe the expected men raised is 250/10k? But that's an all in moment, so I would think 200 ish is something people would be willing to go with at these time.

I think it depends on regions but you probably are expected to have 10 mounted samurai and 20 samurai on foot with 20 or more gunners.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #28

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In theory, one kkoku is the amount of rice needed to feed one man for a year and is about equivalent to 180 litres. Of course, you need more than that to pay the men as well, and pay for armour, weapons and the like.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #29

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
In terms of Kokudaka around Honnoji

Oda clan has 8.47m
Uesugi .94m
Mori 1.12m
Tokugawa .8m
Hojo don't use the traditional kokudaka but they have around 20,000 or a bit more.

So some of Takeda has been absorbed by Oda some by Tokugawa, but as you can see, Oda has an overwhelming advantage in terms of manpower and economic power. Oda had also absorb a few other fiefs but overall I think

The only issue is whether or not the Takeda & Uesugi's superior military leadership and superior cavalry can chip away at Oda's advantage.


***EDIT rough estimation but around the target
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
In theory, one kkoku is the amount of rice needed to feed one man for a year and is about equivalent to 180 litres. Of course, you need more than that to pay the men as well, and pay for armour, weapons and the like.
So Nobunaga has 8,470,000 koku. I assume the average cost per man is 9 koku payment, plus 1 koku for food, per year. That would mean Nobunaga was fielding a force of 847,000 men all-together.

Nobunaga = 847,000 men
Tokugawa = 80,000 men

Uesugi = 94,000 men
Mori = 112,000 men
Hojo = 20,000 men (roughly)

Nobunaga + Tokugawa = 927,000 men

Uesugi + Mori + Hojo = 226,000 men

Nobunagi / Alliance = 4.10176991

So he would have them outnumbered by more than four to one assuming the Takeda didn't step in(and that my math is correct).

Would you say this is roughly correct, or would the soldiers be more or less expensive?

Last edited by RidiculousName; September 7th, 2017 at 01:49 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #30

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Originally Posted by RidiculousName View Post
So Nobunaga has 8,470,000 koku. Assuming the average cost per man is 9 koku payment, plus 1 koku for food, per year that would mean Nobunaga was fielding a force of 847,000 men all-together.

Nobunaga = 847,000 men
Tokugawa = 80,000 men

Uesugi = 94,000 men
Mori = 112,000 men
Hojo = 20,000 men (roughly)

Nobunaga + Tokugawa = 927,000 men

Uesugi + Mori + Hojo = 226,000 men

Nobunagi / Alliance = 4.10176991

So he would have them outnumbered by more than four to one assuming the Takeda didn't step in(and that my math is correct).
No - the kokudaka is the *total* output of rice in the domain. You need a significant proportion of that rice to feed the population of the domain, not just your soldiers.

You also need some of that to pay workers, build fortifications and the other things the domain needs, trade for goods that the domain doesn't produce, etc. etc. It's not all available military use.
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