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Old September 7th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RidiculousName View Post
So Nobunaga has 8,470,000 koku. I assume the average cost per man is 9 koku payment, plus 1 koku for food, per year. That would mean Nobunaga was fielding a force of 847,000 men all-together.

Nobunaga = 847,000 men
Tokugawa = 80,000 men

Uesugi = 94,000 men
Mori = 112,000 men
Hojo = 20,000 men (roughly)

Nobunaga + Tokugawa = 927,000 men

Uesugi + Mori + Hojo = 226,000 men

Nobunagi / Alliance = 4.10176991

So he would have them outnumbered by more than four to one assuming the Takeda didn't step in(and that my math is correct).

Would you say this is roughly correct, or would the soldiers be more or less expensive?
Well no, so I think most people do a 50% taxes. So farmers gets 50% and the lord gets 50%.

The 1 koku is also what would feed a man for a yr, but he would have to raise the crop etc. So you can't take everyone to the field. These would also be just peasant soldiers who won't be very useful.

I recall one retainer, who has 20k koku had to raise 10 mounted samurai, 15 samurai, 20 archers, 20 gunners, and groomsman and spearman and servants etc, but it isn't directly 800k man Nobunaga have. So the military force composition are a bit more different.

Hojo uses 貫高制 instead of 石高制, which is paying in cash instead of land, I believe. So these 20k man are at least semi professional soldiers. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think Nobunaga has a 4:1 ratio advantage. Although if you think about it it sounds roughly right, he was fighting on multiple fronts before he was assassinated.

Last edited by mariusj; September 7th, 2017 at 01:57 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:04 PM   #32

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Nobunaga's domain also included Kyoto and Osaka - two of the largest urban population centres in the country, and therefore the most expensive parts of the country to run.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #33
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Nobunaga's domain also included Kyoto and Osaka - two of the largest urban population centres in the country, and therefore the most expensive parts of the country to run.
I can't remember anymore, but was Osaka some sort of self-governing, or were they under direct administration?
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #34

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A further note - the kokudaka was also the nominal value of rice production - that is to say, how much the land could theoretically produce, not what was actually produced. According to this article, the actual yield was on average on 40% of the kokudaka value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokudaka

In addition, some of the rice produced would also have to be retained to plant for next year's harvest.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:14 PM   #35

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I can't remember anymore, but was Osaka some sort of self-governing, or were they under direct administration?
I can't recall now. i'd have to look it up, I think Cambridge History has more to say about it.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:19 PM   #36
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A further note - the kokudaka was also the nominal value of rice production - that is to say, how much the land could theoretically produce, not what was actually produced. According to this article, the actual yield was on average on 40% of the kokudaka value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokudaka

In addition, some of the rice produced would also have to be retained to plant for next year's harvest.
I thought that's because there is a difference (about half) between rice and husks.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 02:37 PM   #37

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I thought that's because there is a difference (about half) between rice and husks.
My understanding is that it's simply to do with the productivity of the land. When fields were assessed, they were assigned a certain value, which was what the official estimated the land could produce. I could look up the actual criteria, but it was based on the type of land and its area.

Not all fields were given over to rice production, and not all were even in use at any given time. A bad harvest could lead to significantly reduced production - but taxes were based on the nominal value, not the actual production. In bad years, farmers were forced to borrow seed at extortionate prices for planting, and some of the harvest was pledged to pay back the lenders.

Conversely, in exceptionally good years, the price of rice fell, meaning the actual income derived from rice production dropped despite surpluses. The kokudaka system impoverished many samurai in the 17th and 18th centuries, as stipends continued to be paid in rice.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 05:49 PM   #38

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
Well no, so I think most people do a 50% taxes. So farmers gets 50% and the lord gets 50%.

The 1 koku is also what would feed a man for a yr, but he would have to raise the crop etc. So you can't take everyone to the field. These would also be just peasant soldiers who won't be very useful.

I recall one retainer, who has 20k koku had to raise 10 mounted samurai, 15 samurai, 20 archers, 20 gunners, and groomsman and spearman and servants etc, but it isn't directly 800k man Nobunaga have. So the military force composition are a bit more different.

Hojo uses 貫高制 instead of 石高制, which is paying in cash instead of land, I believe. So these 20k man are at least semi professional soldiers. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think Nobunaga has a 4:1 ratio advantage. Although if you think about it it sounds roughly right, he was fighting on multiple fronts before he was assassinated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
A further note - the kokudaka was also the nominal value of rice production - that is to say, how much the land could theoretically produce, not what was actually produced. According to this article, the actual yield was on average on 40% of the kokudaka value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokudaka

In addition, some of the rice produced would also have to be retained to plant for next year's harvest.
First guess:

Alright, so half of everyone's kokudaka is taken by the farmers. That leaves 463,500 for Nobunaga & Tokugawa. %40 of 463,500 is 185,400 koku.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj
I recall one retainer, who has 20k koku had to raise 10 mounted samurai, 15 samurai, 20 archers, 20 gunners, and groomsman and spearman and servants etc, but it isn't directly 800k man Nobunaga have. So the military force composition are a bit more different.
Here is a link to a well-cited post on Reddit concerning troop percentages.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...in_a_standard/

This is one poster's alleged translated version of some of Akechi Mitsuhide's orders:
Quote:
... Bring 6 men to muster for every 100 koku. Gather men at that ratio.
Between 100 and 150 koku: 1 armour, 1 horse, 1 sashimono, 1 yari
Between 150 koku and 200 koku: 1 armour, 1 horse, 1 sashimono, 2 yari
Between 200 koku and 300 koku: 1 armour, 1 horse, 2 sashimono, 2 yari
Between 300 koku and 400 koku: 1 armour, 1 horse, 3 sashimono, 3 yari, 1 flag, 1 gun
Between 400 koku and 500 koku: 1 armour, 1 horse, 4 sashimono, 4 yari, 1 flag, 1 gun
Between 500 koku and 600 koku: 2 armours, 2 horses, 5 sashimono, 5 yari, 1 flag, 2 guns
Between 600 koku and 700 koku: 2 armours, 2 horses, 6 sashimono, 6 yari, 1 flag, 3 guns
Between 700 koku and 800 koku: 3 armours, 3 horses, 7 sashimono, 7 yari, 1 flag, 3 guns
Between 800 koku and 900 koku: 4 armours, 4 horses, 8 sashimono, 8 yari, 1 flag, 4 guns
Those with 1000 koku: 5 armour, 5 horse, 10 sashimono, 10 yari, 1 flag, 5 gun. One mounted man can count for two.
Most of the rest of this post is my uneducated guesses.

Notice that vassals with 1000 koku have to bring between 60 and thirty men, but are only required to bring 15 weapons. There are no bows mentioned. I assume many were expected to bring their own equipment. I am assuming that 1 armor = .25 samurai. I assume this because it fits with the 20,000 koku and 25 samurai of the retainer MariusJ mentioned.

The link mentions that the "Baseline" for cavalry in uesugi's army is %10.1, and that it's probably "much higher". I'll assume %20 cavalry for alliance forces, and %15 for Nobunaga and Tokugawa forces.

I am also assuming that not everyone who walks is a soldier. Riders take up twice the koku of a walker. I have not reduced koku by half or taken the %40 number into account. I assume Mitsuhide already took these numbers into account, and irregardless, their results are too small to be realistic.

According to the link:
1000 koku = 60 walkers or 30 riders.

roughly 16.6 koku = 1 walker
roughly 33.3 koku = 1 rider

Nobunaga forces:
20,000 koku = 840 walkers and 180 riders

Alliance forces:
20,000 koku = 720 walkers and 240 riders

Nobunaga & Tokugawa:

9,270,000 koku = 472,770 walkers and 83,430 riders (11587.5 Bushi)


Hojo/Uesugi/Mori:

2,260,000 koku = 108,480 walkers and 27,120 riders (2825 Bushi)

472,770 divided by 108,480 =
4.35813053 Nobunaga Walkers to 1 Alliance walker

83,430 divided by 27,120 =
3.07632743 Nobunaga riders to 1 Alliance rider


I wasn't able to find any sources for the koku the Takeda controlled.

The link mentions several other possible samurai ratios. From "at least all riders" to "1 per armor".


On the other hand:

If the Mistuhide orders are to be believed, and the ratios of required equipment are equal to the number of those soldiers who would use them in combat, AND they are representative of the entire makeup of Nobunaga's force then..

1000 koku = 5 armour, 5 horse, 10 sashimono, 10 yari, 1 flag, 5 gun.

Nobunaga had 9,270,000 koku so:
46,350 armored troops
46,350 cavalry
92,700 sashimono bearers
92,700 Yari-wielders
9,270 flag-bearers
46,350 arquebusiers

92,700 Yari-wielders + 46,350 arquebusiers = 139,050 troops

I assume roughly half of his walkers should be non-combatants
472,770 / 2 = 236,385 combatants

Archery equipment wasn't mentioned
236,385 - 139,050 troops of other types = 97,335 potential archer troops

Even assuming the Yari-cavalry all bring several spears in-case some break and don't take any from the infantry, That's more archers than he has Yari-wielders. I guess he could make it work, especially since many of his troops would be defending castles, forts, and cities.

some notes:

The fact that armor is equivalent to amount of horses confuses me. I thought only samurai could afford either, and that many samurai were foot-soldiers in this period.

When you take the amount of horses into consideration, it becomes much higher than my baseless guesses earlier. Perhaps each horse only represents 0.5 cavalrymen? The link suggests cavalry ratios much higher than I entertained.

Nobunaga maintains his lead in soldiers though if you count cavalry the Alliance is much closer here.

Somebody needs to tell me how much kokudaka the takeda had. I need to know this.



Obviously, I'm just having fun playing with numbers here.

Don't take my mad guesses too seriously.

Last edited by RidiculousName; September 7th, 2017 at 05:59 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 07:45 PM   #39

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His economic policy was in many ways superior to that of Hideyoshi and Ieyasu's. The key difference of Nobunaga's approach to governance was very different as his goal was a centralized state wherein the feudal lords were under his absolute control through military conquest. Not too different from the approaches taken by Louis XIV and Shah Abbas for example. Hideyoshi and Ieyasu on the other hand preferred to use the quicker diplomatic option, essentially coalition building within the feudal state.

Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; September 7th, 2017 at 07:50 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 07:53 PM   #40

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I can't remember anymore, but was Osaka some sort of self-governing, or were they under direct administration?
Osaka was under Nobunaga's control. However the port of Sakai just to the south was effectively an autonomous township where Nobunaga did not often exert direct control. He essentially used it as a tax haven of sorts in order to stimulate trade and collect funds in a more indirect manner rather than always taxing the inhabitants. I believe he had them pay a fixed sum of tribute.
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