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Old September 7th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #41

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Kenshin had adopted a son of Hojo Ujiyasu as Uesugi Kagetora. I think a Hojo/Uesugi alliance would have been possible. The Uesugi's route to Nobunaga lay through Kaga (and that's indeed the direction that Kenshin was taking just prior to his death).

The key would have been for the Uesugi and Takeda to stop fighting for long enough to attack Nobunaga on two fronts, on the north and south respectively. The Hojo contribution to the alliance would have been to stay put and not attack those two clans from behind.

As history demonstrates - the Hojo really should have opposed Nobunaga sooner!
Not sure if this would be sufficient, the Uesugi in Etchu and the Takeda in Mikawa. What if Nobunaga decided to just throw the bulk of his forces towards one of these? How would one support the other if they are separated by miles upon miles of mountains? I think a better plan would be to have the Takeda go down along the sea and have the Uesugi invade Mino through Shinano. At least if the Takeda fail to reach Owari the Uesugi would be going directly for the heartland of the Oda domain, or vice versa. Though are we assuming that Nobunaga is also fighting enemies in the west?
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Old September 8th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #42
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Did Nobunaga started 兵農分離? I seem to remember somehow that his force was already professionalized, but when I google it, seems to be done under Hideyoshi.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 04:44 AM   #43

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Not sure if this would be sufficient, the Uesugi in Etchu and the Takeda in Mikawa. What if Nobunaga decided to just throw the bulk of his forces towards one of these? How would one support the other if they are separated by miles upon miles of mountains? I think a better plan would be to have the Takeda go down along the sea and have the Uesugi invade Mino through Shinano. At least if the Takeda fail to reach Owari the Uesugi would be going directly for the heartland of the Oda domain, or vice versa. Though are we assuming that Nobunaga is also fighting enemies in the west?
I think if Nobunaga went down that route, the daimyo being attacked simply has to fight a defensive war for long enough to keep the Oda busy while the other one ravages their domains.

Problem I can see with trying to invade across Shinano is that it's almost entirely circled by mountains - if you overlay a map of the borders of provinces with a geological map, the borders of Shinano exactly foillow a ring of mountains. I'm not sure what the passes are like, which is why control of the Nakasendo was so important.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #44

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I think if Nobunaga went down that route, the daimyo being attacked simply has to fight a defensive war for long enough to keep the Oda busy while the other one ravages their domains.

Problem I can see with trying to invade across Shinano is that it's almost entirely circled by mountains - if you overlay a map of the borders of provinces with a geological map, the borders of Shinano exactly foillow a ring of mountains. I'm not sure what the passes are like, which is why control of the Nakasendo was so important.
True enough though I can't see Shingen or Katsuyori playing defensively. Kenshin on the other hand might do so.

I would think that the Takeda army could go down the Tokaido through Kai or Shinano. Meanwhile the Uesugi could go through Shinano in the north and enter Mino, the same way that the Takeda did historically in order to attack Iwamura and Akechi. Only issue I see in particular is the logistical difficulty of supply both armies through Shinano. Perhaps the Takeda could supply themselves via Kai province and live off of what they conquer in Totomi, Mikawa and possibly Owari.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 08:28 PM   #45

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Did Nobunaga started 兵農分離? I seem to remember somehow that his force was already professionalized, but when I google it, seems to be done under Hideyoshi.
Not sure if he actually instituted this policy. However by around 1578 his army was already made up of full time soldiers and Nobunaga did limited recruitment as opposed to before. I think the last large scale recruitment and raising of troops by Nobunaga happened in 1575 or maybe 1577/78, many of these troops were drawn up from the Ji-Samurai, land owning families that fought professionally, and ashigaru peasant soldiers that fought full time in this case. Though with regards to separating soldiers from peasants, in certain provinces he enforced weapons bans among the populace. This was not carried out throughout his entire domain but it was heavily enforced in areas where Ikko Ikki and similar peasant revolts had been giving them trouble, such as in Kaga province.

Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; September 8th, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
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