Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 5th, 2017, 12:23 PM   #1

RidiculousName's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Aug 2016
From: USA
Posts: 343
Oda Nobunaga: A Genius?


Please tell me why or why not Oda Nobunaga was a genius. He's often demonized even by Japanese media, but nobody can deny he nearly unified Japan, and likely would have if not for Mitsuhide's betrayal. Tell me what you think.

Last edited by RidiculousName; September 5th, 2017 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Mitsunari to Mitsuhide
RidiculousName is offline  
Remove Ads
Old September 5th, 2017, 12:39 PM   #2

clement's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: California, USA
Posts: 2,137
Blog Entries: 2

He was certainly a great military commander overall though I believe he did have some setbacks against Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin. I personnaly prefer his immediate successor Totoyomi Hideyoshi, but he could not have been as successful without the legacy of Nobunaga to build upon. However, while I mainly see Nobunaga as a warrior, I tend to believe that Hideyoshi's achievements in state building were superior.

As far as I know, Nobunaga was pretty cruel, probably excessively so, but Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were no teddy bears either. It was a dangerous, difficult time and many people would have gladly had Nobunaga murdered at that time, as demonstrated by his death. So he had some good reasons to feel slightly paranoid.
clement is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 12:55 PM   #3

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,875

Why was he a genius?

Because he was able to acquire and keep the loyalty of men like Hideyoshi, Ieyasu and Shibata Katsuie (although not Akechi Mitsuhide).

He was also able to harness the power of his peasant infantry better than others. He realised an ashigaru with a rifle would kill someone just as dead as an elite samurai with a spear.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #4

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 19,818
Blog Entries: 19

What I know about him is that, as soon the father died, he generated not a little problems with the Oda clan [not a great strategy, to say the least]. To say all, in the Oda clan they didn't think he was suitable to be a "daimyō".

Regarding his military skills ... I can be wrong, but in 1555 CE he did a disaster in the province of Mino [to help Saito Dosan, who probably wondered why such a rookie tried and help him! ... for the chronicles ... Dosan died ... killed].
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 01:28 PM   #5

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 19,818
Blog Entries: 19

This said, regarding how we see a historical figure, there is the matter of the historiography of reference.

In Italy the Japanese Oda clan is near to be literally sanctified. So that as soon as Oda Nobugana became the leader of the clan ... he has been considered similar to a saint in Italian historiography ...

But [regardless Italian odd historians] he never accepted particular titles, he remained the leader of the clan and the "daimyō" of Owari.

From his "sanctified" stance, what Italian historiography underlines, it's what he did about Samurai class.

From 1576 Nobunaga confiscated the weapons from the peasants and common persons just to control the presence of warriors in the population. It was Hydeyoshi to destroy the samurai cast, but Nobunaga did something about.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #6
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Los Angeles
Posts: 808

Quote:
Originally Posted by clement View Post
He was certainly a great military commander overall though I believe he did have some setbacks against Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin. I personnaly prefer his immediate successor Totoyomi Hideyoshi, but he could not have been as successful without the legacy of Nobunaga to build upon. However, while I mainly see Nobunaga as a warrior, I tend to believe that Hideyoshi's achievements in state building were superior.

As far as I know, Nobunaga was pretty cruel, probably excessively so, but Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were no teddy bears either. It was a dangerous, difficult time and many people would have gladly had Nobunaga murdered at that time, as demonstrated by his death. So he had some good reasons to feel slightly paranoid.
Nobunaga was more than just a warrior, he was also a great statesman, a man of culture, and he was probably one of the few to centralized political power in Japan for quite a while. Unlike Hideyoshi and Ieyasu who kept the bakafu (Hideyoshi tried his best to be adopted into a clan that was capable of establishing a bakafu but failed thus he tried a different approach, and that may have succeeded if his children were older. In fact, had he not kill his nephew, it would be so much more difficult for Ieyasu to pull his own trick.) whereas Nobunaga seems to favor a far more centralized approach.

And Nobunaga wasn't exceptionally cruel, he was just cruel without favorites. His actions by themselves weren't uniquely different, it was simply who was exempt from it from the other lords.
mariusj is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 02:22 PM   #7

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,875

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
And Nobunaga wasn't exceptionally cruel, he was just cruel without favorites. His actions by themselves weren't uniquely different, it was simply who was exempt from it from the other lords.
He was, however, a fan of unambiguous and overwhelming force to make his point.

When he laid seige to Mt Hiei, he slaughtered around 20,000 men, women and children, pretty much the entire population of the mountain. On the other hand, he did spare most of the defenders of the Ishiyama Honganji after they surrendered, although he burnt it to the ground.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 02:25 PM   #8
Scholar
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Los Angeles
Posts: 808

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
He was, however, a fan of unambiguous and overwhelming force to make his point.

When he laid seige to Mt Hiei, he slaughtered around 20,000 men, women and children, pretty much the entire population of the mountain. On the other hand, he did spare most of the defenders of the Ishiyama Honganji after they surrendered, although he burnt it to the ground.
If I recall correctly (and I am far away from any of my sources) didn't he made peace with them twice or thrice already? But they kept joining forces with his enemies whenever they could and they joined forces with the one person he probably hated the most at that point in his life.

Although I do know he killed a lot of people at Hiei, did he killed around 20,000?

But yes, he was never shy about been unambiguously cruel.
mariusj is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 02:28 PM   #9

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,875

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
If I recall correctly (and I am far away from any of my sources) didn't he made peace with them twice or thrice already? But they kept joining forces with his enemies whenever they could and they joined forces with the one person he probably hated the most at that point in his life.

Although I do know he killed a lot of people at Hiei, did he killed around 20,000?

But yes, he was never shy about been unambiguously cruel.
Yes, the death toll was around 20,000. It's probably the event that did most to cement his reputation for cruelty. Beyond that, he was probably not that much different to anyone else.

Takeda Shingen had people boiled alive, and he was a Buddhist monk.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old September 5th, 2017, 02:49 PM   #10

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 29,875

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusj View Post
the one person he probably hated the most at that point in his life.
I'm assuming you mean Asai Nagamasa, his brother-in-law.

He had his sister Oichi (for the benefit of readers, Oichi was Nobunaga's sister) betray the whereabouts of the boy (who was 10), then had him executed and his head displayed on a stake. Manpukumaru may, in fact, have been Oichi's son (although this is uncertain), which would have made Nobunaga his uncle.

Nobunaga had gilded drinking cups made out of Asai Nagamasa and his father Hisamasa's skulls. What a present to show his sister.

"Hey, Oichi, look who we have for dinner tonight!"
Naomasa298 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
genius, nobunaga, oda, odd



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oda Nobunaga survives Darth Raidius Speculative History 6 October 5th, 2015 08:55 PM
Oda Nobunaga HistoryFreak1912 Asian History 2 December 31st, 2014 11:21 AM
How Should Oda Nobunaga be remembered? Jake10 Asian History 46 April 26th, 2012 09:40 PM
Cao Cao (Ts'ao Ts'ao) VS Nobunaga Oda Semjax Speculative History 4 August 3rd, 2011 11:47 AM
Oda Nobunaga and Religion leakbrewergator Asian History 12 February 8th, 2011 06:59 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.