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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:41 PM   #71
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Classification based on skin color existed all over the world whenever a white skinned invader enslaved a dark skinned local. Examples are latin america and africa. Why should India be any different? If all indians were of the same skin color there will not be discrimination and reservations. no? Or even scheduled caste/tribes prevention of atrocities act. no? skin color is the root of hate and discrimination. Mr. Atreya, Language is nothing. BJP is bharatiya janata party. Since the word party is there, are all BJP members anglo saxons? no? Maybe after 2000 years the likes of you might claim modiji as liverpudlian or something?
There is zero evidence for the division of people in India based on skin color.

And for your argument about the word "party" in BJP, it is wrong. The fact that "party" indicates a system that is not native to India should tell you something. There is no equivalent word for jAti in South Indian languages. That system was an introduction to South by the North Indians.

What a ridiculous argument! Where is such a reservation that is based on skin color in India? Are you from this planet?

There are many Brahmins that are dark skinned, but are held in high esteem over any other fair skinned people of other Varnas.

Frankly, I fail to understand this delusion behind skin color based division.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 07:48 PM   #72

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One thing i forgot to mention is shudras could be elevated to kshatriya varna by creating a ficticious genealogy. So the color based classification is not rigid. Dark skinned people can be brahmins and kshatriyas.
In kashmir, Punjab and Haryana even U.P. The color of the lower caste are either same or much fairer than the higher caste. In kashmir its even more pronounced. Muslim and Hindu higher caste (Kashmiri Pandits and kashmiri-Muslim converted from Pandits) are generally darker. If the caste was skin based would'nt it be inverse.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 10:25 PM   #73

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"Sanitation workers" (cleaning roads, etc.) are well paid in India and strongly organized. Nobody meddles with them. See images below to understand what happens when they agitate. They would throw garbage on roads and let it stink. Manual scavenging is illegal. Calling them by derogatory names (Bhangi, Chura) entails a five-year jail term. Strong-arm methods don't work with them. After all, you have to go back to them to have the muck cleaned up.

Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; September 13th, 2017 at 11:44 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #74
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Come on. For party BJP could have used parishad, sangh, dal, sena or even katchi, koota or kazhagam. Since they used word party, do all BJP members become anglo saxons? Why are you so obsessed about north indians south indians? Everyone living in India were north indians at some point of time. Nobody sprang out of the ground in karnataka and tamilnadu. They had to enter india from outside. Since you are living in the 21st century you do not know how the world existed even 100 years ago. Do you know in karnataka/tamilnadu people as a form of revenge used to skin animals alive and let it die a miserable death. Do you know the lunatic caste system that was present in kerala? The world has changed a lot especially India. Again i am saying varna was only a general idea and was not practical even in the BC period. Only some brahmins cling on to the idea at present.

Last edited by maratha; September 14th, 2017 at 12:07 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 12:00 AM   #75
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Yes Anmolji you are right. The invasions of greeks, scythians, huns and turks brought in plenty of fair skinned folks doing menial tasks. So yeah varna system is not practicable. But it exists in the minds of a significant amount of brahmins even today. I remember from my childhood a brahmin gym owner preventing dark skinned people from joining his gym. He was blabbering something like dark skinned people cannot have big muscles or look good or something like that. It is funny but it still exists.

Last edited by maratha; September 14th, 2017 at 01:57 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 03:19 AM   #76

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Again I am saying varna was only a general idea and was not practical even in the BC period.
I do not know to whom your reply is addressed to. I take 'varna' too mean a person's innate nature, quality, character, etc. IMHO, the idea is still valid and it is not concerned with a person's family of birth. A person born in a shudra family could be a good researcher and teacher and a person born in Vaishya family could be strong and a good army leader.
ps - Sorry to have made you 'Martha' in a previous post.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 10:44 AM   #77

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Can you please watch this video and if you have the time give us your thoughts. In particular does this reflect the reality or have things improved etc.


Hi Bullit,

Nice you have posted the video and give me an opportunity to respond.

First is to admit:

Caste system in India is not dead. But it is on death-bed and is terminally ill. As mentioned in previous post: "With all this, the strength or hold of the system on society is fast fading away."

The video depicts a situation which is present in some odd villages - say in few thousand out of 650 thousand in India. But it is a very selective depiction of the real situation.

Larger Picture:

Here is some of the other side:

Take for example, the Police force in Delhi, the capital of India. It has 11,787 personnel who belong to the "Untouchable" castes and another 16,416 from 'lower castes'. These two together constitute 37% of the total police force in capital of India.[1] Police as you know is a prestigious job and any policeman can arrest even a man of highest caste in case of any offence. Situation is much the same throughout India in Government employment. I am not aware of any Government in the world which has brought such drastic representation to deprived classes.

Everyday 22 million people travel in Indian Railways. They sit (often stand) shoulder to shoulder together, touch each other, eat together from same vendors in trains, and drink water from same taps at Railway stations. You will find no caste here, only unbelievably large crowds. Same repeats in euqally large bus transport systems.

Varna-Jati system are almost dead in urban India as well as larger rural toens. Most educated people are against it. And as mentioned, Government has dug its grave by bold affirmative action and strict laws.

The Video:

Have a re-look at the video and you may notice the unnatural setting of filming:

[i] the lady-interviewer asks questions in English and the people reply instantly in Tamil language. Actually the two do not understand each other's language, still they converse fluently. So there is an interpreter / mediator in between who is not shown. ***

[ii] The pig attacks a woman but the videographer / interviewer are busy filming the scene rather than saving the woman. Immediately on getting up, the fallen woman eagerly continues answering the question as if nothing happened - she does not even adjust her dress! What is captured is not a natural sequence but enacted one for the camera (rather for you and me). ***

The crux of the video is at 12:15 minutes when the interviewer goes to 'Sister Sudha' - a converted Christian in India - and gets the final conclusion from her that caste system will never ever die in India. Unstated conclusion is that therefore all 'lower caste' Indians should follow a superior religion which will give them equal status. You can guess which one that is.

*** I suspect the interviewees are also people who being motivated for a proposed faith or just joined it. Actually only 16 minute clip out of 60 minute is uploaded on Youtube.

Caste in Christianity in India:

But does Christianity free them completely from caste in India? Read the following on castes in Christianity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_...ian_Christians

Bamonns, Sudra and Dalit Christians - The Caste System Among the Indian Christians


'Untouchables' / Dalits Today in India:

Today people who belong to Dalit category and to 'other lower castes' in India are politically well organized, more & more aware of their rights, and are asserting themselves. The video itself says that Hon'ble President of India is from discriminated section of society.

Today they constitute a politically powerful group which is courted by every political party in India. Leader of the largest Dalit Party (Ms. Mayawati) was the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh (population equals Pakistan) for many years. She was on the Forbes List of 100 Most Powerful Women in World. [2] The new alliance she is trying to forge is with Muslim parties because Dalit+Muslims together can have enough number of votes in some Indian states to win majority seats in elections and form governments.

Congress woos them because Congress’s Muslim vote bank has eroded. BJP, the allegedly Hindutva party, also woes Dalits (old Untouchable) & 'lower castes' for votes.

Unfortunately, like Christianity, Islam also suffers from caste system in India:

Read at the following links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_..._Asian_Muslims

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-a...Indian-Muslims

Indian castes are now becoming like 'biradaris' of Pakistan because of reservations in Educational institutions and Government jobs.

Back to the Video:

In short, this video is not totally devoid of truth. It has just enough of truth (like salt in chapati dough) to make it appear genuine to the unsuspecting.

It does not capture the work done to remove the Caste system but focuses only on the remnants of the system that remain.

To my mind, it is more of an advertisement aimed to collect donations in Christian world abroad, to teach local people in India that they will be perpetually discriminated in Hinduism; and, last but not the least, why not therefore adopt a more enlightened faith? QED

I personally wish them (people who make such videos) good luck. Because it is awakening the Hindus to reform their own belief system by discarding the negatives. Insah Allah, it will reform & get a new avatar.

Regards

Rajeev


[1] Diversity in Delhi Police - OPINION - The Hindu
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayawati

Note on Terminology:

Fourth varna = Shudras mostly = 'other lower castes'
Fifth varna = Untouchable = Dalits (today)

Last edited by Rajeev; September 14th, 2017 at 11:17 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 12:01 PM   #78

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Thank you Rajeev, that was a very detailed and informative post. May I ask how many Indians belong to the five "Varnas" by percentage. I guess you won't have exact figures but just give us a ball park figure please.


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Last edited by Bullit; September 14th, 2017 at 12:03 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:20 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
IMHO, there must have been fair-skinned indigenous people in North India even before the advent of Aryans or they were all drk-skinned?
I honestly doubt it if by fair skin you mean Bollywood standard at least.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:39 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by anmol View Post
In kashmir, Punjab and Haryana even U.P. The color of the lower caste are either same or much fairer than the higher caste. In kashmir its even more pronounced. Muslim and Hindu higher caste (Kashmiri Pandits and kashmiri-Muslim converted from Pandits) are generally darker. If the caste was skin based would'nt it be inverse.
I don't know about UP but this isn't the case in punjab. In Kashmir which is relatively isolated and homogeneous don't have any particular caste darker then others. Pandits are bit darker then Kashmiri muslims because brahmins there moved from plains of India/Haryana, but difference isn't much at this point. Obviously now that they have moved to mainland India they have naturally mixed with other non-kashmiri brahmins etc. While Kashmiri muslims have ancestry from ancient IVC who were dark people but don't have much recent Indian plain ancestry like pandits.

Punjab plains too were more like urban areas and much easy access mean its much more racially diverse then small Kashmir. KP is another region which racially diverse but mountainous FATA on the other hand is relatively homogeneous.
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