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Old October 31st, 2017, 04:03 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post

The Zoroastrians also have a similar four-fold division of the society.
Dear Aupmanyav,

I remember reading that Greek and Iranian civilization had a three-fold classification of people but not found a detailed discussion anywhere.

Regards

Rajeev
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Old October 31st, 2017, 04:45 AM   #12

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The Zoroastrians also have a similar four-fold division of the society.
Yes, could locate the mention of Caste System in ancient Persians by Al-beruni, a Islamic scholar, in c. 1000 CE [1]:


"All this is well illustrated by the history of the ancient Chosroes (Khusrau), for they had created great institutions of this kind, which could not be broken through by the special merits of any individual nor by bribery. When Ardashir ben Babak restored the Persian empire, he also restored the classes or castes of the population in the following way :

Thefirst class were the knights and princes.
The second class the monks, the fire-priests, and the lawyers.
The third class the physicians, astronomers, and other men of science.
The fourth class the husbandmen and artisans.

And within these classes there were subdivisions, distinct from each other, like the species within a genus. All institutions of this kind are like a pedigree, as long as their origin is remembered ; but when once their origin has been forgotten, they become, as it were, the stable property of the whole nation, nobody any more questioning its origin. And forgetting is the necessary result of any long period of time, of a long succession of centuries and generations.

Among the Hindus institutions of this kind abound. We Muslims, of course, stand entirely on the other side of the question, considering all men as equal, except in piety ; and this is the greatest obstacle which prevents any approach or understanding between Hindus and Muslims."

Regards

Rajeev

References:


[1] ALBERUNI'S INDIA: AN ACCOUNT OF THE RELIGION, PHILOSOPHY, LITERATURE, GEOGRAPHY, CHRONOLOGY, ASTRONOMY, CUSTOMS, LAWS AND ASTROLOGY OF INDIA ABOUT A.D. 1030. An English Edition with Notes and Indices by Dr. EDWARD C. SACHAU. KEGAN PAUL, TRENCH, TRUBNER & CO. LTD, LONDON, 1910. Page-100 in Volume-1.

[2] Before the above quoted paragraph, Alberuni talks of positive side of Classification and after it he goes on the describe the Caste System as it existed in India in c. 1000 CE.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 04:57 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by maratha View Post
[iii] Going forward, what are the possibilities of caste being "annihilated"?

In india increasing urbanisation will be the driving force in the dismantling of the caste system. English education, reservations and globalisation are speeding up the process. When the per capita income of India equals that of the western world, I believe the caste system will be annihilated
Income or wealth does not change caste. It will be a tough task. Who are interested in perpetuating the caste system? Those who derive benefits from reservations (OBC, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled tribes) and politicians (who act as saviors of particular castes). Difficult to remove the caste system, entails a political upheaval. See what the Marathas are demanding in Maharashtra, Patel in Gujarat, Jats in Rajasthan and Haryana. Every one wants reservation, special deals. It is not that that all OBCs, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are poor. Some are stinking rich. Let us see what OBC Commission comes out with.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 06:17 AM   #14
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Interesting articlre that sheds light on the philosophical and religious underpinng of caste in Hinduism. It appears to be informed by various Hindu text - mostly the Manusmrti.

"The ancient Indian term for caste was ‘varna’ i.e. complexion. In general people belonging to the three upper castes were of fair complexion and the Shudras of swarthy complexion. So, it may be conceived that the former were were primarily Aryans (believed to be belonging to Cacasoid whilte races from central Asia which had invaded India and subjugated the indigenous people and got settled as rulers of the Indian suncontinent) and the Shudras, indigenous people (mainly proto-Australoid or Dravida) whom the Aryans had subjugated while invading the Indian subcontinent and incorporated these vanquished black people into the Aryan hierarchy as the fourth and serving class for their own interest.The Vedic Concept
The relevant sloka from Rig Veda is:
“The Brahmanas were His Mouth, the Kshatriyas became His Arms, The Vaishyas were His Thighs, and the Shudras were assigned to His Feet” (Rig Veda, 10.90.12)3.
Caste System in Manusmriti

Manu opines that the creator has assigned specific duties to specific classes of people and to substantiate his views he repeats the Vedic concept viz., Brahmins originated from the mouth, Kshatriyas from the arms, Vaishyas from the thighs, and Shudras from the feet of the creator. So, they have different functions in all the ages. To quote:
1.87. But in order to protect this universe He, the most resplendent one, assigned separate duties and occupations to those who sprang from his mouth, arms, thighs, and feet4.
10.5. In all castes those children only which are begotten in the direct order on wedded wives, equal in castes and married as virgins, are to be considered as belonging to the same caste as their fathers5.
The lowest caste, viz. the Shudras, forming the majority of the population, was turned into almost slaves of the minority upper three through the guideline that the primary function of the Shudras is to serve the three upper castes. To quote:
1/91: One occupation only the lord prescribed to the Shudra, to serve meekly even these other three castes6.

Manu opines that if a person belonging to any caste relinquishes his assigned duties and adopts some forbidden duty, he will be degenerated, unless he is compelled to do so by unavoidable pressure of circumstances. To quote:
12.70: But men of the four castes, who have relinquished without the pressure of necessity their proper occupation, will become the servants of Dasyus, after migrating into despicable bodies7.
It appears that Manu emphasized that division of labour according to castes should be based on heredity.
Caste System in Mahabharata

From certain slokas of the epic Mahabharata, it may appear at first sight that the epic insisted on determination of caste of a person by his propensities and talents and not by birth. To quote:
“Everyone derives his own nature from the nature of his acts, in respect of their circumstances, place, and means and motives.” (Ganguli, Sec-62)8.


Manusmriti and Origin of Dalits in India | Sulekha Creative
Namaskar,

Caste system was founded for preservation of Aryan Society and Blood in India. look at it as an Apartheid system of South Africa, bunch of Aryans came, conquered, civilized the land and created a Nation for "Aryans" in unclaimed land of northern part of South Asia.

Aryans came, civilized the land, cleared jungles for their people, founded cities for their own people and built Brahmavarta and ultimately Aryavarta/Nation of Vedic Aryans for their own people.

i dont know much about history of other Castes but as a Brahmin i can only speak about my caste.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) originally Brahmins were Priests of Vedic Tribes who used to perform Religious duties for their own specific Tribe and Tribal King/Raja/Rajan/Kshatriya and his warriors.
ex. Major chunk of Brahmin DNA is still Aryan(over 60% to 80%)

2) After migrating to South Asia from Central Asian Homeland they assimilated Priest of Indus Valley civilization (Iranian Neolithic people) into their fold.
ex. second largest chunk of Brahmin DNA is West Asian (20% to 30%)

3) Major Kshatriya Clans of Vedic Aryan Background also Adopted Brahmin title as their people become non-violent or to protect their bloodline or Increase their Social Status in the not only Aryan but overall Indian society.

ex. Bhardwaj, Tyagi, Harita, Upmanyu, Angiras, Ambarisha, Yuvanaswa, Harita, Ambarisha etc were Suryavanshi Kshatriya Tribes who were Vedic Kshatrya who became Brahmins.

Kaushika, Bhargava were Chandravanshi Kshatriyas who also Became Brahmins.

why kshatriyas allowed to became Brahmins ? Reasons are simple,

1) all Aryans were Kshatriyas at one point/Nomadic.

2) Kshatriyas were Vedic Aryans and twiceborn, only twice born Aryans were allowed to Change their castes.

3) while Brahmins were nobles and priests, Kshatriya and kings were real deals. only reason some tribes became Brahmins is to secure their position in society.

4) virtually no Genetic difference between position of both Castes as you can find both Priests and Warriors from Same vedic Tribes.
ex. Priests and Warriors of Bhradwaj tribe, priest and warriors of atri Tribe, Priest and warriors of Vishwamitra Tribe, priest and warriors of angiras Tribe.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 07:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Rajeev View Post
Dear Aupmanyav,

I remember reading that Greek and Iranian civilization had a three-fold classification of people but not found a detailed discussion anywhere.

Regards

Rajeev
Not really the same as Indian caste. If you are referring to the Greek nobility, commoners, and slaves, they are not the wame thing as caste. While you could be born into these classes, you could move from class to class - a commoner could become a slave, and a slave could obtain his freedom. A commoner could through success, might have his children rise to the nobility

The Indian caste were far more rigid and fixed.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 08:34 AM   #16

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Gread thread Rajeev. I saw this [below] documantary by Christian Amanpour. How well or otherwise does this reflect the situation on the ground in India?
Hi Bullit,

It is true that in some remote rural areas caste rules are followed and occasionally violence also erupts. Today these things are the exceptions, not the rule.

In this video itself you can see that one fine morning the 'lower caste' women suddenly decided to take water from Government installed well and they simply take it. No "upper caste" guy could stop these simple ladies to break a tradition which professors tell us is 3000 years old. The ground reality is that the "upper caste" knows that if they try to stop these "lower caste" women they will be in jail - behind bars - in no time.

Today the "lower castes" in India are politically well organized and are well protected by law. If the lady in the Video goes and complains in a Police Station that I prevented her from taking the water, then I have to prove that I did not - this is what I mentioned in first post that 'burden of proof is on the accused' as per Indian law in cases of discrimination.

Things have changed very much in India - now social discrimination against 'Dalits' is getting extinguished because good number of District Collectors, Tahsildars, and Police Officers themselves are from 'Dalits'.


Regards

Rajeev


You had posted this video in another thread & I had given my views on it. India is a democracy in which fundamental right to 'freedom of belief / religion' is guaranted to all citizens. Proselytization is legal and also a continuous activity in India.


This video is - as far as I can discern - to proselytize or generate funds for the activity outside India. It is a collection of some extreme scenes which happened over a period of time or staged for purpose - all the same the depicted events are not unknown. At end of the video, the film-financier delivers 50% of his message thru the lips of Sister Sudha: 'An untouchable will always be considered as untouchable for life - no matter how well financially he does in life.' The remaining 50% unsaid is: 'therefore please, wake up, and adopt a faith which does not treat you so badly.'
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Old October 31st, 2017, 10:13 AM   #17

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Originally Posted by Rajeev View Post
At end of the video, the film-financier delivers 50% of his message thru the lips of Sister Sudha: 'An untouchable will always be considered as untouchable for life - no matter how well financially he does in life.' The remaining 50% unsaid is: 'therefore please, wake up, and adopt a faith which does not treat you so badly.'
What about the President of India, Mr. Ramnath Kovind, a dalit?
Foreign propaganda.
A dalit whose family used to live in a mud house with thatched roof. Unfortunately, once the roof caught fire and Mr. Kovind lost his mother in the conflagration.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 10:17 AM   #18
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Namaskar,

Caste system was founded for preservation of Aryan Society and Blood in India. look at it as an Apartheid system of South Africa, bunch of Aryans came, conquered, civilized the land and created a Nation for "Aryans" in unclaimed land of northern part of South Asia.

Aryans came, civilized the land, cleared jungles for their people, founded cities for their own people and built Brahmavarta and ultimately Aryavarta/Nation of Vedic Aryans for their own people.

i dont know much about history of other Castes but as a Brahmin i can only speak about my caste.
Appreciate your post for being brutally frank. From what I have read thus far the laws derived from Manu in effect legislate a form of racial aparthied. The top of the totem pole being the Aryan Brahmins who as you say are indeed more West Asian in phenotype. At the bottom of the totem pole are the Dalit who display strong aboriginal traits. And you have lots of "grades" in between to slot the products of inevitable miscegenation.

Another poster suggested that exposure to sun whilst working is the cause of the differnatiation between the castes. That is laughable suggestion. Whilst that does make a differance but that is not going to a make a archetypal Brahmin end up looking like a Dalit anymore then I will become a Eskimo if I eat, hunt fish and live in the North Pole. This belows seems a great definition of the Laws of Manu and caste system.


The Hindu social order was based on the Four Verna system i.e. Chaturvarna Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. These varnas are designed as the different floors of the building without a stair case. This is the ladder of inequality. There is no parallel in world of such a discriminatory and cruel system of human subjugation as the Indian caste system. The caste system has the sanction of all Hindu scriptures.

Link > title


Brahmins are the masters of the entire universe. Besides, Brahmins alone act as a sort of post office for transmitting food to the gods and the dead, that is to say, the gods and the dead eat food through the mouths of Brahmins (apparently because they do not have mouths of their own). Therefore, no one can be superior to Brahmins. All others are said to enjoy everything owing to the Brahmins' mercy. The Manusmriti clearly states that Brahmins alone are entitled to teach this dharmashastra and none else.

· Manusmruti article 10.129 says, “ Even though the shudra possesses the quality/merit, he/she should be prohibited from collection of wealth or money.”

· Manusmruti article 8.416 gives the right to the Brahmins to snatch the wealth of shudras. Manusmruti also prevented women giving equal right and freedom.

· Article 1.91 says, “Shudras are prohibited from taking education. They should serve the above 3 vernas without complaining to anybody.” It is interesting to note that studying, getting yajnas performed and giving gifts or charity are common duties of Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas; whereas teaching, accepting gifts and performing yajnas are reserved exclusively for Brahmins. The Shudras, of course, are denied the rights to study, getting yajnas performed by Brahmins

· Manusmruti was not merely a religious book but it was a constitution of India for 2000 yrs.

· The Hindu law as codified by Manu is based on the principle of inequality.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 10:25 AM   #19
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Namaskar,

Caste system was founded for preservation of Aryan Society and Blood in India. look at it as an Apartheid system of South Africa, bunch of Aryans came, conquered, civilized the land and created a Nation for "Aryans" in unclaimed land of northern part of South Asia.

Aryans came, civilized the land, cleared jungles for their people, founded cities for their own people and built Brahmavarta and ultimately Aryavarta/Nation of Vedic Aryans for their own people.

i dont know much about history of other Castes but as a Brahmin i can only speak about my caste.
Hahahahahahahahahaha . Cool story bro. You have as much aryan blood in you as a Dalit has.

i will prove it.


Scientists from Harvard Medical School and the CSIR-Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad, India, provide evidence that modern-day India is the result of recent population mixture among divergent demographic groups.


“Only a few thousand years ago, the Indian population structure was vastly different from today,” said co–senior author David Reich, professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School. “The caste system has been around for a long time, but not forever.”

In 2009, Reich and colleagues published a paper based on an analysis of 25 different Indian population groups. The paper described how all populations in India show evidence of a genetic mixture of two ancestral groups: Ancestral North Indians (ANI), who are related to Central Asians, Middle Easterners, Caucasians, and Europeans; and Ancestral South Indians (ASI), who are primarily from the subcontinent.

However, the researchers wanted to glean clearer data as to when in history such admixture occurred. For this, the international research team broadened their study pool from 25 to 73 Indian groups.

The researchers took advantage of the fact that the genomes of Indian people are a mosaic of chromosomal segments of ANI and ASI descent. Originally when the ANI and ASI populations mixed, these segments would have been extremely long, extending the entire lengths of chromosomes. However, after mixture these segments would have broken up at one or two places per chromosome, per generation, recombining the maternal and paternal genetic material that occurs during the production of egg and sperm.

By measuring the lengths of the segments of ANI and ASI ancestry in Indian genomes, the authors were thus able to obtain precise estimates of the age of population mixture, which they infer varied about 1,900 to 4,200 years, depending on the population analyzed.

While the findings show that no groups in India are free of such mixture, the researchers did identify a geographic element. “Groups in the north tend to have more recent dates and southern groups have older dates,” said co-first author Priya Moorjani, a graduate student in Reich’s lab at Harvard Medical School. “This is likely because the northern groups have multiple mixtures.”

“This genetic datatells us a three-part cultural and historical story,” said Reich, who is also an associate member of the Broad Institute. “Prior to about 4000 years ago there was no mixture. After that, widespread mixture affected almost every group in India, even the most isolated tribal groups. And finally, endogamy set in and froze everything in place.”

“The fact that every population in India evolved from randomly mixed populations suggests that social classifications like the caste system are not likely to have existed in the same way before the mixture,” said co–senior author Lalji Singh, currently of Banaras Hindu University, in Varanasi, India, and formerly of the CSIR-Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology. “Thus, the present-day structure of the caste system came into being only relatively recently in Indian history.”*

But once established, the caste system became genetically effective, the researchers observed. Mixture across groups became very rare.

“An important consequence of these results is that the high incidence of genetic and population-specific diseases that is characteristic of present-day India is likely to have increased only in the last few thousand years when groups in India started following strict endogamous marriage,” said co–first author Kumarasamy Thangaraj, of the CSIR-Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad, India.**

Mohan Rao, Director, CSIR-CCMB said, “CCMB's continuing efforts over a decade on this field had helped in understanding the complexity of Indian population history and social structure, such as caste systems.”

This study was funded by the NIH (GM100233); NSF (HOMINID grant 1032255); a UKIERI Major Award (RG-4772); the Network Project (GENESIS: BSC0121) fund from the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, Government of India; a Bhatnagar Fellowship grant from the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research of the Government of India; and a J.C. Bose Fellowship from Department of Science and Technology, Government of India.

*, ** Quotes adapted from American Journal of Human Genetics news release.

Last edited by songtsen; October 31st, 2017 at 10:36 AM.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 10:27 AM   #20
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Appreciate your post for being brutally frank. From what I have read thus far the laws derived from Manu in effect legislate a form of racial aparthied. The top of the totem pole being the Aryan Brahmins who as you say are indeed more West Asian in phenotype. At the bottom of the totem pole are the Dalit who display strong aboriginal traits. And you have lots of "grades" in between to slot the products of inevitable miscegenation.

Another poster suggested that exposure to sun whilst working is the cause of the differnatiation between the castes. That is laughable suggestion. Whilst that does make a differance but that is not going to a make a archetypal Brahmin end up looking like a Dalit anymore then I will become a Eskimo if I eat, hunt fish and live in the North Pole. This belows seems a great definition of the Laws of Manu and caste system.


The Hindu social order was based on the Four Verna system i.e. Chaturvarna Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. These varnas are designed as the different floors of the building without a stair case. This is the ladder of inequality. There is no parallel in world of such a discriminatory and cruel system of human subjugation as the Indian caste system. The caste system has the sanction of all Hindu scriptures.

Link > title


Brahmins are the masters of the entire universe. Besides, Brahmins alone act as a sort of post office for transmitting food to the gods and the dead, that is to say, the gods and the dead eat food through the mouths of Brahmins (apparently because they do not have mouths of their own). Therefore, no one can be superior to Brahmins. All others are said to enjoy everything owing to the Brahmins' mercy. The Manusmriti clearly states that Brahmins alone are entitled to teach this dharmashastra and none else.

· Manusmruti article 10.129 says, “ Even though the shudra possesses the quality/merit, he/she should be prohibited from collection of wealth or money.”

· Manusmruti article 8.416 gives the right to the Brahmins to snatch the wealth of shudras. Manusmruti also prevented women giving equal right and freedom.

· Article 1.91 says, “Shudras are prohibited from taking education. They should serve the above 3 vernas without complaining to anybody.” It is interesting to note that studying, getting yajnas performed and giving gifts or charity are common duties of Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas; whereas teaching, accepting gifts and performing yajnas are reserved exclusively for Brahmins. The Shudras, of course, are denied the rights to study, getting yajnas performed by Brahmins

· Manusmruti was not merely a religious book but it was a constitution of India for 2000 yrs.

· The Hindu law as codified by Manu is based on the principle of inequality.


Manusmriti is truly a stupid and disgusting book. Because of that book India still has problems. Fortunately for Hindus they have many holy books.
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