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Old November 1st, 2017, 10:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Satakarni View Post
Agreed some people are fixated on Aryans coming from Central Asia and then make up bogus theories to suit them. Hinduism has always been changing. It has never been fixed. Castes have risen and fallen all over India over the last two thousand years. Caste will die when Indians reach a level playing field, IMO
I concur. I do not see caste systmen surviving in modern educated India. Hinduism greatest strength is the ability to evolve and its many holy books and saints. I see the rise of lower castes and Modi as a sign of new modern India.
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Old November 1st, 2017, 11:10 PM   #52

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Originally Posted by Satakarni View Post
Most of these Tamils have such a pitiful inferiority complex and partly the blame is to be put on Brahmins who called all these people indiscriminately as Sudra for thousands of years.
Since both North Indians and South Indians are my people, I do not concur with your post. Tamil is my maasi-maa (sister of my mother, Hindi). May Tamil live long. But thanks for giving a helping hand to Hinduism.
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.. and during the ancient period there was a tussle for religious power between Kshatriyas and Brahmins. Buddhism and Jainism were both founded by Kshatriyas.
Beg to differ again. Buddha was against costly yajnas and animal sacrfices. Brahmins were for it because it got them more money. The tussle was economic and against Aryan brahmanism. That is why brahmins tried to make Buddha into a horror figure, but in the end Buddha won. Brahmins had to accept him as the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; November 1st, 2017 at 11:42 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2017, 11:26 PM   #53

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They worship whiteskin and have fetish for central asia. If that is not inferiorty complex what is?
It is not because of any longing for white skin. My skin would not grow fairer by having connections with Central Asia. But it is because of history. All people who came in from North (apart from Aryans - the sakas, Kushanas and Hunas) will also have skin fairer than indigenous Central Indians or South Indians (not talking about North Indians who may be fair even without Central Asian connections). It is partly a matter of lattitude. How otherwise one reconciles the surprising similarity between the Zoroastrian and Aryan myths and language (considering that there is hardly any evidence of "out of India" migration)?
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Buddha said a Brahmin is made by character not by birth. So a educated man who is born a shudra becomes a brahmin.
That is what Hindu scriptures also say. Take for example the Yaksha/Yudhishthira conversation (Samvada).

Last edited by Aupmanyav; November 1st, 2017 at 11:31 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2017, 11:58 PM   #54
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Then what is the need to stress lineage of Boddhisatva? We have to remember that Buddha was a Kshatriya and during the ancient period there was a tussle for religious power between Kshatriyas and Brahmins. Buddhism and Jainism were both founded by Kshatriyas. IDK about how Buddhism works everywhere else, but Indian Buddhism in that time period specifically prohibited Brahmins from taking Kshatriya wives while allowing the reverse which is basically Vedic Caste system in favor of Kshatriyas. In short, caste definitely mattered to the Buddha himself although Buddhism may not have been as fixated on varna mixing or whatever

Also, your point about karma is true simply because Buddhism was an Aryan faith which drew on the same principles as Vedic religion. This angle about Buddha being like Che Guevara or something is a myth and a lie. He respected the old social order and wanted to see his people on top of it
Buddha was of course a born as a Kshatriya prince and a man of his times. That does not make his teachings Vedic. Muhammad was born a Pagan but koran is certainly not Pagan. I do not understand why Buddha is seen as some sort of Pro Vedic figure if Muhammad is not seen as a Pagan.

Buddha mocked and ridiculed Brahmans and Vedas in many verses. Buddha mocked vedic rituals and priests. He was against ritual sacrifices and caste system. He was a Marx of his time not a lowly Che.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 12:01 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
It is not because of any longing for white skin. My skin would not grow fairer by having connections with Central Asia. But it is because of history. All people who came in from North (apart from Aryans - the sakas, Kushanas and Hunas) will also have skin fairer than indigenous Central Indians or South Indians (not talking about North Indians who may be fair even without Central Asian connections). It is partly a matter of lattitude. How otherwise one reconciles the surprising similarity between the Zoroastrian and Aryan myths and language (considering that there is hardly any evidence of "out of India" migration)?That is what Hindu scriptures also say. Take for example the Yaksha/Yudhishthira conversation (Samvada).

I of course was not referring to you Sir while talking about this inferiority complex.. You are educated and actually use your brain unlike some other folks we know.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 12:02 AM   #56
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how can you tell about a modern Hindu which caste he belongs to? family names indicate it? is it registered somewhere? or from their occupation?
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 02:08 AM   #57
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What is so fanatic about it? How was communism annihilated not far back? How was Buddhism annihilated from India? Want me to mention more examples? Are you saying that such acts are fanatical?
What about annihilating christianity?
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 02:13 AM   #58

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LOL. It's really annihilated now? I thought it's still pretty well & alive.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 02:27 AM   #59

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Buddhism was a failure
In India, perhaps, but it was a success in NEA & SEA. Even Indonesia & Malay Peninsula only moved away from it only from around 10th century onwards.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 03:53 AM   #60

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how can you tell about a modern Hindu which caste he belongs to? family names indicate it? is it registered somewhere? or from their occupation?
Hi Tulun,

To an extent one can identify caste both ways.

Surnames:

Surnames sometimes do give clear indication of the caste, or at least the sub-caste. Take for example the surnames like "Sharma" and "Mishra," which are used by Brahmins. Similarly surnames like Dwivedi (knower of two Vedas), Trivedi (knower of three Vedas), Chaturvedi (knower of four Vedas) belong to Brahmin families.

In fact there is small movement also in which a people have done away using surnames - Brahmins & others. But the movement will remain small as far as I can see.

Occupation:

In occupations which rank higher on desirability in occupational-hierarchy, things have changed and now there is a good mix of people from lower castes. This is mainly because of affirmative action by Central & State Governments which means reservations in government jobs and also reservations in public educational institutions for applicants. Reservations for lower castes now is mandated at 49% of all vacancies in Govt & public sector. So in entire government bureaucracy and public sector, which are the largest employers in organized & well-paying sector of India, we find people from lower castes as well. In these cases occupation does not tally with caste.


However, occupations which rank 'lowest' on desirability in occupational-hierarchy continue, perhaps more often than not, to have lower-caste people who have traditionally done them. For example, one may cite occupations like disposal of dead bodies in cremation ground, jobs connected with waste treatment or management, cleaning roads in cities. Here change is slower and will come thru mechanization and creation of infrastructure & systems - like in western countries - which improve desirability of the occupation. I had a 20-day tour of US where we visited 10 cities, saw many public places, traveled a lot. The Afro-Americans still manned most of the cleaning services but the way work gets done in US is more hygienic compared to India. Change on similar lines is needed in India and being really populous is taking time.

In occupations with moderate desirability - like a Peon in a Court or a Government office - there is a continuum between the limits cited above.

In private sector in urban areas, education & skill - and not caste - are the criteria for employment.


Regards

Rajeev

Last edited by Rajeev; November 2nd, 2017 at 04:04 AM.
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