Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 6th, 2018, 08:02 PM   #21

Maki's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Republika Srpska
Posts: 1,722

Quote:
Originally Posted by nakamichi View Post
Isn't this sentence cyclic? Was there a temple registration system prior to sakoku?
Yes, there was. Some early forms date from before the Edo period. In 1614, the Kokura Domain forced Christians to convert to Buddhism and they were forced to produce certificates of temple registration that confirmed their conversion. This was the earliest example of the temples being used to suppress Christians. However, the practice was expanded and became obligatory for every Japanese, not just new converts in 1638.

Last edited by Maki; January 6th, 2018 at 08:12 PM.
Maki is online now  
Remove Ads
Old January 7th, 2018, 07:42 AM   #22
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Algeria
Posts: 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
Some early forms date from before the Edo period. In 1614, the Kokura Domain forced Christians to convert to Buddhism and they were forced to produce certificates of temple registration that confirmed their conversion. This was the earliest example of the temples being used to suppress Christians.
Do you not consider 1614 part of the Edo Era? I can understand why, but I'm now inquiring if there were other forms of registration had existed before 1603, with these other forms not existing for Christian suppression.

Do you have a reference on the Kokura registration?
nakamichi is offline  
Old January 7th, 2018, 07:47 AM   #23

Maki's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Republika Srpska
Posts: 1,722

Quote:
Do you not consider 1614 part of the Edo Era? I can understand why, but I'm now inquiring if there were other forms of registration had existed before 1603, with these other forms not existing for Christian suppression.
Of course I consider 1614 a part of Edo period, but you asked whether there was any form of registration before the SAKOKU.

Quote:
Do you have a reference on the Kokura registration?
Tamamuro Fumio, The Development of the Temple-Parishioner System, Japanese Journal of Religious Studies 36/1, pg. 17
Maki is online now  
Old January 7th, 2018, 08:16 AM   #24
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Algeria
Posts: 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
Some early forms date from before the Edo period.
What do you mean by this?

(My thought was that you might have viewed the Edo starting after the Siege of Osaka.)

I like this from pages 17 and 18 of the article:

Quote:
"In 1635 (Kan’ei 12), the Edo bakufu established the new Office of Temples and Shrines (jisha bugyō 寺社奉行). Under the supervision of this office, the bakufu approved administrative head temples (furegashira jiin 触頭寺院) for each Buddhist sect that would require their branch temples to expose Christians in all villages. Through an elaborate, pyramid-like structure of head and branch temples, the bakufu instituted a complex network for monitoring religion, which would also serve as the controlling mechanism demanding certificates of Buddhist temple registration as evidence of good standing in the new polity."
Very centralized. I didn't know they had their fingers in the shrines so early, but I still believe they had a greater grip on the temples in 1635. Registration for anti-Christian suppression at shrines did not start until the kokugaku movement.

Quote:
"Another school of thought called the “Native School” (Kokugaku) thought that they had discovered the cause of Japan’s social and economic problems. It lay in the foreign ideologies that ruled Japan. Men like Shinto priest Kamo Mabuchi and his discipline Motoori Norinaga believed that the native ideas of Shinto and imperial rule were better suited to Japan than the Chinese Buddhist and Confucian philosophies. They suggested that the emperor as a living kami descended directly from the Sun Goddess Amaterasu must be restored to power. Only when the emperor and his people were one again in the land of the gods could Japan prosper. These men resurrected the eighth-century Japanese histories Kojiki and Nihongi as well as other literacy classics like the Tale of Genji and various warrior tales. They reprinted some of the early imperial poetry anthologies and generally much to popularize Shinto."

"It was at their suggestion that people were allowed to register with Shinto shrines instead of at Buddhist temples to do the yearly fumi-e rituals to prove that they were not Christians."

Perez, Louis G. The History of Japan. Greenwood Press, 1998. Page 79

Last edited by nakamichi; January 7th, 2018 at 08:20 AM.
nakamichi is offline  
Old January 7th, 2018, 08:40 AM   #25

Maki's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Republika Srpska
Posts: 1,722

Some forms of temple registration, mostly focused on funerary rites, existed before the Edo period. The temple records would include the names of visitors, their home address, the dates of death of close relatives etc. Such records date from the late 16th century. Such practices were not yet widespread, but they existed.
Maki is online now  
Old January 7th, 2018, 08:47 AM   #26
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Algeria
Posts: 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
Such records date from the late 16th century
I'm now thinking Azuchi-Momoyama. Did Toyotomi's administration care about these records?
nakamichi is offline  
Old January 7th, 2018, 09:17 AM   #27

Maki's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Republika Srpska
Posts: 1,722

Quote:
Originally Posted by nakamichi View Post
I'm now thinking Azuchi-Momoyama. Did Toyotomi's administration care about these records?
Most likely no. It was not really regulated and Hideyoshi instituted an official census, he didn't need those records.
Maki is online now  
Old January 7th, 2018, 09:39 AM   #28
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Algeria
Posts: 155

Which reminds me. When the Tokugawa reinitiated census, was that branch of administration interested in religious affiliation?

From the except I quoted from Tamamuro's article, it seems the only 'records' the bakufu wanted were the names of Christians.

It says "for each Buddhist sect that would require their branch temples to expose Christians in all villages", but when a Christian is reported, who does the temple report it to? How high up does the report go in Tokugawa bureaucracy?
nakamichi is offline  
Old January 7th, 2018, 10:08 AM   #29

Maki's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jan 2017
From: Republika Srpska
Posts: 1,722

The temple registration system was designed in order to identify Christians, but by the 18th century, it had changed into a government-run system to control the populace and provide the bakufu with data about the number of inhabitants. After all, the Christian presence declined in Japan, the temple registration system couldn't have had this as its primary reason for existing in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The bakufu was provided the data concerning religious affiliation by the temple registration system, even after the government officially introduced a census. The religious census (shumon aratame) and the government census (ninbetsucho) were gradually combined into one, although the Buddhist temples were responsible for the shumon aratame, while the government was responsible for the ninbetsucho.
Maki is online now  
Old January 7th, 2018, 10:20 AM   #30
Archivist
 
Joined: Jun 2017
From: Algeria
Posts: 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
The religious census (shumon aratame) and the government census (ninbetsucho) were gradually combined into one, although the Buddhist temples were responsible for the shumon aratame, while the government was responsible for the ninbetsucho.
Do you mean the ninbetsucho and shumon aratame were compiled as one report? Or that temples and government were creating the nearly identical registries, independent of one another, and pointlessly doing the same work twice?
nakamichi is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
bakufu, buddhism, oppress, tokugawa



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion: The Japanese Bakufu leakbrewergator Asian History 76 January 15th, 2018 02:48 PM
Tokugawa Japan leakbrewergator Asian History 11 February 4th, 2016 04:54 AM
Buddhism and Indology (why Upanashads before Buddhism in the west) Piccolo Asian History 5 January 30th, 2016 06:14 AM
Tokugawa's Japan Musubi History Help 1 October 30th, 2015 01:34 AM
Tokugawa Shoganate ncwillus Asian History 11 September 14th, 2009 04:55 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.