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Old November 27th, 2017, 09:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Virtually all slavic languages use the word "slon", which is not similar to the sanskrit Gaja or the latin elephant.

To me this means that indo-europeans didn't know about elephants and later adopted all kinds of different words, from whoever told them about it.
Yes, the Europeans did not know about elephants, but not the Indians (I mean the Vedic Aryans). There are more than 25 words for elephant (perhaps more). Of the most ancient words are "ibha", "vAraNa" and "hastin".

The Persian word for elephant pIru is related to the Sanskrit word for elephant pIlu. It is from this word, the Arabic word "fil" for elephant originated.

Most of the words for elephant in India are of Sanskrit origin. This should tell you clearly where the term for the animal originated.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 09:29 PM   #22

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Yes, the Europeans did not know about elephants, but not the Indians (I mean the Vedic Aryans). There are more than 25 words for elephant (perhaps more). Of the most ancient words are "ibha", "vAraNa" and "hastin".

The Persian word for elephant pIru is related to the Sanskrit word for elephant pIlu. It is from this word, the Arabic word "fil" for elephant originated.

Most of the words for elephant in India are of Sanskrit origin. This should tell you clearly where the term for the animal originated.
Yes of course, I do not debate where the words for elephant originated. They of course probably come from the place where there are elephants.

What the debate is about: Did the proto-indo-europeans originate in the eurasian steppes, and not knowing any words for elephant came to India and learned them from indians, (or from Phoenician (compare Hamitic elu "elephant," source of the word for it in many Semitic languages) or as my opponent says, all indo-europeans came from India and forgot what elephant is and started to call the camels elephants.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 09:35 PM   #23

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Actually, in Old Slavic, particularly in Old Church Slavic, the word for camel is "velibodŭ". .. Both "Rabh" and "Labh" mean "to grasp, seize, take", referring to an elephant's trunk grasping things.

So then you have "Labhamanta", which later became "elephant", which is a cognate with Old Church Slavic "velibodŭ".
Nice, now you are talking like a historian; and thanks for the information.
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The Indo-European homeland ranges from the Khyber pass to Western Uttar Pradesh, since the Yamuna and Ganga are mentioned in the oldest books of the Rig Veda (dated to around 3,500 BCE). So it covers your whole white circle as well as the eastern part of the red square.
Of course, we can have our discussion on that. I believe RigVeda probably as old as 6,000 BC since it mentions Aditi as the mother of suns (Adityas), and Aditi is the deity of Punarvasu (Castor and Pollux), the asterism in which the sun arose at that time on the day of vernal equinox. Aditi is mentioned in RigVeda as one who found the 'Yajna' (the spirit of the seasons), 'Samvatsara', as 'Ubhayataru' ('double-ended' with which the year begins and ends, etc.). We have discussed this in the forum, but you were not around at that time.
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They actually lasted till 10,000 years ago.
Pygmy mammoth is different from the woolly mammoth.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; November 27th, 2017 at 09:50 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #24
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Yes of course, I do not debate where the words for elephant originated. They of course probably come from the place where there are elephants.

What the debate is about: Did the proto-indo-europeans originate in the eurasian steppes, and not knowing any words for elephant came to India and learned them from indians, (or from Phoenician (compare Hamitic elu "elephant," source of the word for it in many Semitic languages) or as my opponent says, all indo-europeans came from India and forgot what elephant is and started to call the camels elephants.
Since the most ancient IE words for elephant are from Vedic, we can say that the Indo-European languages originated in India.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #25

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.. while the Slavs were exiting India, ..
Now that is a problem. How come the Yaz culture is dated at 1,500-1,000 BC, the BMAC is dated 2300–1700 BC, Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim, Southern Urals, northern Kazakhstan, 2200–1600 BC and Yamna is dated 4000–2300 BC? How is it that the Indo-European cultures get older as they go away from India? The river seems to be going backward to the mountains. If the Slavs exited India then it should have been the other way round. Nearer to India should have been older.
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Some argue the Appalossa of the Nez Perse tribe is distinct from European horses & evolved in the West.
Thanks for the interesting information on Appaloosa and Nez Perse Indians.

Last edited by Aupmanyav; November 27th, 2017 at 10:21 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:19 PM   #26

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^
Even the Hittites were dated to about 2,000 BC at the least, IIRC.

About the river, perhaps it was a special, unique, anti-gravity kind of river.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 27th, 2017 at 10:22 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #27

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Since the most ancient IE words for elephant are from Vedic, we can say that the Indo-European languages originated in India.
You see the most ancient word for potatoe originates in Haiti, then all indo-european languages come from Haiti. It is as good as any claim.

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Old November 27th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #28

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^
LOL. Perhaps the name Haiti is a derivative of Hyder, as in Hyderabad, who knows. And you must be a very good friend of Al Gore, TupSum. Or was it Dan Quayle? It's slipping from my memory now.

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Old November 28th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #29

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Not changing goalposts. What makes you think the Caballus isn't native to India? That's quite funny, you are the one who is bringing in biological taxa when you say the horse must be the Caballus. If ancient Indians were riding on something that looked more like a horse than a donkey, then it's a horse.
Really? So if the Ancient Indians were riding Indian Donkeys (Wild Ass), then that's the same as a horse? When you use Horse in common parlance, its in reference to a single species. Ferus Caballus. Sivalensis is no more a horse than hemionus khur. There really is no getting around this
And the Caballus isn't native to India. There's no dearth of literature on its native spread. Or its biology for instance. Its predominantly an animal suited to large open grass or grass like plains, if I remember my biology correctly. You don't have vast spreads of that in India. In contrast the wild ass is native to India. One way to gauge spread is to look at where populations of wild horse have existed. Do you find any in India? Have any historical records of this as such?
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Even if you argue the horse isn't native to India, there were still other species of horses, such as the sivalensis. The wikipedia article for sivalensis does not specify whether it's a horse or a donkey. The other currently existing species of horse is Przewalski's horse.


Rigveda I.162.18 and the Shatapatha Brahmana 13.5 describe the horse being sacrificed as having 34 ribs, and not 36 like the Central Asian horse, hinting at another species of horse.
Aaah yes, that vedic Horse nonsense. You have evidence of the Sivalensis being domesticated? Ridden? Indeed even actually coexisting with neolithic populations? Heck, do you have anything to suggest that the Sivalensis looks close enough to a horse, that it conflated with it. Its a separate species. It needs to look so close to the horse that it gets conflated with it by historical populations. If its visual profile is merely close to that of a horse, then its the same issue - Donkeys are Horses if you're going to confuse species. Does Talageri have this evidence?

This has been debated and debunked on this forum before. Please look up the Great Injustice to Indian History thread. Stretching to absurd lengths to try and link extinct animals to the Vedic Aryans. An Animal that isn't found in the Haryana-Sindh region I might add, going by the fossil record, and largely went extinct around 10k BCE.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...lensis&f=false
If you want basic biological info on the horse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse

Also, maybe you can also postulate that the Indians rode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparion. That too existed regions overlapping with the Sivalensis.

Last edited by tornada; November 28th, 2017 at 03:52 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:37 AM   #30

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Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
That banker! Did he prove it for good?

Elephant: https://www.google.co.in/search?q=wo...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Sanskrit: Ibhah
Thanks for that post!
Do we know when the earliest elephants could have been domesticated?


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You see the most ancient word for potatoe originates in Haiti, then all indo-european languages come from Haiti. It is as good as any claim.

The mystery is Solved!
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