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Old November 28th, 2017, 12:56 PM   #11

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OK. You seem to know a lot about it. You tell me why.
I don't, that's why I'm asking. I just don't think your argument about shallow water naval technology is that strong, otherwise Japan's contact with China would have been far more limited.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 01:32 PM   #12

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I don't, that's why I'm asking. I just don't think your argument about shallow water naval technology is that strong, otherwise Japan's contact with China would have been far more limited.
And where and when did the Japanese operate in deep waters? Sailing shallow bottom boats off the Chinese coast is not deep water, whether it's in the Sea of Japan or the Yellow Sea.
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Old November 28th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #13
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Debating about the causes of Western modernity and colonialism brought me to this question. Why didn't Japanese ships prior to the Edo period land in Alaska or Canada when they are very close to each other, closer even than Spain and the Caribbean where Columbus first landed?

One can also ask the same about pre-Qing China which is a similar distance.
Did you have look at history of Jpanese boats? Designs good for sailing through Pacific?
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Old November 28th, 2017, 03:53 PM   #14

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And where and when did the Japanese operate in deep waters? Sailing shallow bottom boats off the Chinese coast is not deep water, whether it's in the Sea of Japan or the Yellow Sea.
Why are those seas not "deep water" and what evidence do you have "sailing shallow bottom boats" were the primary ships used by the Japanese?
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Old November 29th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #15

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Why would Japanese merchant ships sail north? The Ainu or Ezo were considered dirty barbarians with very little to trade not to mention being dangerous. Many criminals from Honshu were shipped to the handful of mainland colonies on Haikkaido as punishment to live amongst the unclean in exile.

The prevailing currents and ice also didn't encourage exploration in weaker hulled ships designed for coastal water trade that Japanese merchancts primarily sailed before the arrival of the Portuguese. Almost all trade between Japan, Korea, China was handled by Muslim merchants based in China where first the Sung, then Mongol, and later Ming dynasties maintained relatively large navies with particularly the short expansion of the Ming navy to huge proportions under Cheng–ho who was a favorite of the Emperor and briefly the Ming navy might have outclassed any European navy of the time but such a navy was hugely expensive and for the Chinese bureacrats of the Imperial Court there seemed little benefit as unlike Europe they already had most of their trade import needs already handled without state intervention and there were no serious naval threats to Ming interests until the arrival of Europeans a century later.

Even during Cheng–ho's life the focus of economic activity was on internal infrastructure with the rebuilding and improvements of the Grand Canal and several huge building schemes around major cities such as the new capital of Peking sapped interest in foreign expeditions with relatively low returns on the huge investment they required.

The main reason for Cheng–ho's expedition was as a representative of the state whose prime purpose was showing the power and legitimacy of the Ming- to this effect Cheng–ho was given a trade monopoly so there could be no legal private trade based on the routes and goods he discovered. The final blow was that with Cheng–ho's death rival factions of the Imperial Court destroyed most of the records of his voyages and suppressed long distance external trade as well as persecuting Muslim merchants for many of the same reasons Japan eventually closed most foreign trade to Europeans other than the Dutch.

Muslim populations were growing in power and numbers in the port cities conducting the trade and becoming politically influential. Many factions within the Ming opposed any rivals increase in power just naturally but in the case of Muslims there were extra considerations and the decree to make long-distance trade only the province of the Emperor and state was directly aimed to reduce the growing Muslim political power and was successful in that but also led to Ming naval technology being suppressed and ignored during the same historical period Europeans were making new discoveries and rapidly increasing in their own naval technologies.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #16

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Why are those seas not "deep water" and what evidence do you have "sailing shallow bottom boats" were the primary ships used by the Japanese?
You got any pictures of deep keel ocean-going Japanese ships?

Operating in littoral waters off the coast is not "deep water".
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #17
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The Red Seal ships from the 17th century went across some sea didn't they? They were based on Chinese and European styles, though.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #18

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The Red Seal ships from the 17th century went across some sea didn't they? They were based on Chinese and European styles, though.
They sailed as far as the Philippines, but they are Edo-period ships. One Japanese ship crossed to Mexico in 1610, but it was a European-style ship, designed and built by Will Adams and named the San Buena Ventura.
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Old February 10th, 2018, 02:18 PM   #19
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They sailed as far as the Philippines, but they are Edo-period ships.
Sukezaemon reached Luzon prior to, but also really close to, the Edo-period.

*I do not know if his ship was Japanese built of solely Japanese technology*, let alone, what ship he sailed period.

I once thought that his initial voyage to the Philippines initiated in Indo-China, and thus likely did not use a Japanese ship. It turns out his time there occurred later than his initial trading expeditions. I am now under the impression he sailed out of Japan (possibly with layover)
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Old February 10th, 2018, 03:46 PM   #20

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Originally Posted by Maoistic View Post
Debating about the causes of Western modernity and colonialism brought me to this question. Why didn't Japanese ships prior to the Edo period land in Alaska or Canada when they are very close to each other, closer even than Spain and the Caribbean where Columbus first landed?

One can also ask the same about pre-Qing China which is a similar distance.
Depending on a more specific date than pre-edo, you could say that the Japanese wanted to deal with already was on their plate, Korea and China which they had wars with a some points from my understanding, even with the Mongols and therefore maybe didn't even consider the possibility of going eastwards even if they knew there was land which is another point I'd like to bring up, I wouldn't imagine them travelling to east without knowing if their was anything there or not otherwise it would be a pointless journey. In terms of ships specifically, after looking up ships from the pre-edo time, I've only really found the Atakebune which I would discard immediately as it was supposedly made mostly of iron, more defensive than exploration purpose and the Red seal ships which if would have been the most likely to have been used had the Japanese decided to sail eastwards.
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