Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 11th, 2018, 08:06 AM   #21

Ichon's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2013
From: .
Posts: 3,289

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinn475 View Post
Depending on a more specific date than pre-edo, you could say that the Japanese wanted to deal with already was on their plate, Korea and China which they had wars with a some points from my understanding, even with the Mongols and therefore maybe didn't even consider the possibility of going eastwards even if they knew there was land which is another point I'd like to bring up, I wouldn't imagine them travelling to east without knowing if their was anything there or not otherwise it would be a pointless journey. In terms of ships specifically, after looking up ships from the pre-edo time, I've only really found the Atakebune which I would discard immediately as it was supposedly made mostly of iron, more defensive than exploration purpose and the Red seal ships which if would have been the most likely to have been used had the Japanese decided to sail eastwards.
Red Seal ships were barely pre-European trade- there is still alot of question how much of that system was made to benefit Europeans living in Japan, most likely any long distance earlier ships would have been from Ryuku kingdoms as they were the only Japanese I am aware of that traded far, otherwise most of the trade was conducted out of China to Japan, not from Japan to China. Even the Ryuku trade ships were built in China and existed to ensure the tributes from Ryuku could be sent to China (and China sort of considered some of the trade Ryuku ships did as collecting tribute- not 'trading' ).
Ichon is offline  
Remove Ads
Old February 21st, 2018, 01:55 AM   #22
Archivist
 
Joined: May 2013
From: Tir na nOg
Posts: 206

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maoistic View Post
Debating about the causes of Western modernity and colonialism brought me to this question. Why didn't Japanese ships prior to the Edo period land in Alaska or Canada when they are very close to each other, closer even than Spain and the Caribbean where Columbus first landed?

One can also ask the same about pre-Qing China which is a similar distance.
Have you heard about the similarities between the Valdivia Culture of Ecuador
and the Jomon Culture from Kyushu, Japan.
RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN REGARD TO ANCIENT TRANSPACIFIC INFLUENCE ON THE NEW WORLD
MacFarlane is offline  
Old February 21st, 2018, 12:40 PM   #23
Archivist
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Various places
Posts: 107

There were stories among PNW natives of the occasional Asian shipwreck reaching them. But these were small craft that got blown way off course and carried by the currents, by the time they got to America they were in pretty miserable shape. Funnily enough they did have an impact though, as I understand it the stories of Japanese shipwrecks/castaways was one of the things that encouraged Ranald MacDonald (first native English teacher in modern Japan) to go visit there.

It's not pre-Edo, but you might be interested in the story of Otokichi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otokichi

Last edited by Komi; February 21st, 2018 at 12:42 PM.
Komi is offline  
Old February 21st, 2018, 02:14 PM   #24

Naomasa298's Avatar
Modpool
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 30,808

Quote:
Originally Posted by Komi View Post
that encouraged Ranald MacDonald (first native English teacher in modern Japan) to go visit there.
Shortly followed thereafter by Colonel Sanders.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old February 21st, 2018, 03:49 PM   #25
Not a Korean
 
Joined: Aug 2013
From: 'Maircuh
Posts: 3,375
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Shortly followed thereafter by Colonel Sanders.
And some girl named Wendy or something.
Haakbus is offline  
Old February 22nd, 2018, 12:37 AM   #26
Archivist
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Various places
Posts: 107

^ Every time I mention that guy's name to somebody...
Komi is offline  
Old February 22nd, 2018, 02:39 PM   #27
Citizen
 
Joined: Dec 2017
From: US
Posts: 28

Why would you 'sail' to places you don't know even exist? Even the Spanish who were the first (besides the Austronesians) to figure out the Kuroshiyo (North Pacific gyre) current on the way back to Mexico had a hard time until Urdaneta Expedition (although a few months prior a ship that went ahead actually beat Urdaneta who was an old priest then but he was a sailor in the doomed Loiasa expedition). There were prior accounts of Spanish 'failing' trying to get up to the same latitude as Japan before finding the winds/currents, many of them either had to 'go back' to Manila battered or ended up in Japanese coast (often times killed or raided). Most of the Europeans who essentially circumnavigated the world then was actually going the Portuguese route (crossing the Pacific via S. Pacific gyre, but going back through Indian Ocean thru SEAsia). Not just the early Spanish (the Spanish tried to keep it a secret ie how---which is actually not 'how' but when to sail was the question to catch the winds and current) but eventually the English and Dutch pirates who actually knew the Spanish ie their galleons, were returning eastward to New World would wait for them around California, raid them and then cross the Pacific (S. Pacific gyre) and then cross through the N. Pacific gyre and end up on insular eastern SEAsia to raid more galleons and escape through Straits of Malacca to India and then back home (via Horn of Africa and then north to western Europe). Best account for this is Dutch raider Van Nordt.

There may have been some 'accidental' ships blown off course or fishermen lost (this is not uncommon in the Pacific, there are more than enough instances where Micronesians were blown by typhoons to Philippines and Indonesia etc, multiple accounts of these exist in Philippine history both during Spanish and American times, but the most famous was example was the shipwrecked Palauans to eastern Philippines which instigated the colonization of the islands by Spanish).

There are 'theorists' on this for example the Beggers' "Valdivia-Jomon" connection theory, wherein Chilean archaeologist thought that pottery of Valdivia resembled Jomon pottery and even (although I'm not gonna go further because I've not read a solid article) on rare genetic disease found in Japan and in Ecuador (or Chile)...but there's not a 'solid' evidence of it.

But it's not impossible, could've been possible. We know the people of Siberia and Alaska had contact and they're neighbors (whom they had contact with) the Ainus possibly have known at least of Alaska.
Cheesetorian is offline  
Old February 23rd, 2018, 12:32 AM   #28
Archivist
 
Joined: Feb 2018
From: Various places
Posts: 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesetorian View Post
We know the people of Siberia and Alaska had contact and they're neighbors (whom they had contact with) the Ainus possibly have known at least of Alaska.
Would you care to elaborate on that a bit? Despite the proximity I'm not aware of indigenous Alaskans having any substantial interactions with indigenous Siberians in pre-European times. Would be interesting to find out if I missed something there.
Komi is offline  
Old February 23rd, 2018, 12:55 AM   #29
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2013
From: China
Posts: 5,840

be aware that Hokkaido is annexed by Japan as late as 19th century...
to Japan, hokkaido was already a very very poor land, also had no importance on trade.
how could they go further?
heylouis is offline  
Old February 23rd, 2018, 01:11 AM   #30

Tulius's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2016
From: Portugal
Posts: 3,847

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesetorian View Post
…Best account for this is Dutch raider Van Nordt.
This one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_van_Noort ?

I have the idea that in the 17th century this kind of world circumnavigations would be quite rare.
Tulius is online now  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
alaska, canada, japanese, land, preedo, premeiji, ships



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Japanese Alaska kazeuma Speculative History 10 November 9th, 2017 12:14 AM
European ships in Japanese service Wodz Mikolaj General History 3 September 4th, 2015 01:21 AM
Why did Canada not get Alaska? greatstreetwarrior American History 39 August 27th, 2015 08:06 AM
Why didn't Britain fight harder for Canada? Mike Lynch American History 53 March 9th, 2013 01:28 AM
Why didn't the other Central Powers retake their land as Turkey did ? Mohammed the Persian General History 14 March 21st, 2012 04:06 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.