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Old December 16th, 2017, 12:30 AM   #41

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One more thing we need to consider: the Ming and the Japanese really didn't face in that many conventional field battles. Byeokjegwan was the biggest battle in which the two forces clashed. From 1593 to 1597 there was no major action and in the 2nd war there were some battles like Chiksan, but very soon it all became basically siege warfare around the wajo and of course naval actions.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:10 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
So? The Koreans didn't kill a 100,000 Japanese, the Japanese army was devastated by disease as well. Plus the Joseon war minister Yi Hang-bok said that the intervention by the Ming is the only way Korea can survive.


Because their strategic situation worsened. Yes, losses suffered at Haengju played a part, but so did the Ming army under Li Rusong that once again started moving towards Seoul after hearing the news from Haengju. Just because the Japanese defeated the Ming once doesn't mean that everything changed, plus it's not like the Japanese eliminated the majority of the Ming army. Li brought 43,000 men into Korea, the Ming losses at Byeokjegwan were 6,000.
Chosun has been exchanged with Japan for thousands of years. Are you a complete idiot when you think the Japanese die 100,000 people by disease? The Chosun army killed the Japanese army in many battles. It killed 15,000 people in the Battle of Hanseong Mountain, 10,000 people in the Battle of Hansando and killed 60,000 others in the other battle.
But what is the battle that the Ming army killed the Japanese army? Give proof. I think you are a stupid human being without a proof.

minister Yi Hang-bok is an exaggerated expression to attract the Ming army. You are such an idiot rightly believing those words. The reason why Chosun attracted the Ming Dynasty was that the Ming Dynasty was also threatened by the Japanese military, so it was intended to cooperate and to reduce the damage of Joseon

Last edited by common sence; December 16th, 2017 at 08:14 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Haakbus View Post
Great Korean-Mongol brotherhood, blah blah blah blah....
Korea(Goryeo) didn't be a Mongolian(yuan) colony. Do not distort history.
Korea had a 30-year war with Mongolia, and Mongolia failed to conquer Korea.
Korea and Mongoli only signed an unequal tie-up agreement.
The kings of Korea were Koreans and ruled themselves. Mongolian officials could not live in Korea and could not collect any tax. Rather, marriage between King Koryo and the family of the Mongolian kings enabled King Koryo to participate in the Golden Clan meeting, which is the Mongolian royal family. It was a significant influence on Mongolia's national affairs . Do not distort history
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Because he probably believes that Korea 'allied' itself with the Mongols after becoming 'tired' of all the Mongol incursions.
Korea(Goryeo) didn't be a Mongolian(yuan) colony. Do not distort history.
Korea had a 30-year war with Mongolia, and Mongolia failed to conquer Korea.
Korea and Mongoli only signed an unequal tie-up agreement.
The kings of Korea were Koreans and ruled themselves. Mongolian officials could not live in Korea and could not collect any tax. Rather, marriage between King Koryo and the family of the Mongolian kings enabled King Koryo to participate in the Golden Clan meeting, which is the Mongolian royal family. It was a significant influence on Mongolia's national affairs . Do not distort history
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by wolflance View Post
After the Japanese slowed the Ming advance at byeogjegwan, they almost immediately went back to the offensive, attacking Haengju (which failed).

So they clearly saw Ming as a serious threat that needed to be thwarted first, before they could resume business as usual and continue the invasion.

(If you are curious, Japanese army abandoned Kaesong because they wanted to concentrate their force in anticipation of a major Ming offensive, so Kaesong definitely count as Ming contribution to the war. By that, I mean two out of three most important Korean cities were liberated thanks to Ming involvement).


I am sorry, but Ryu Seong-Ryong still found plenty of food in Seoul AFTER Japanese force withdrew from Seoul in 1593. Just read Jingbirok (A Korean source penned by Ryu himself).

If Korean commando really burned all the food, why was there still food in Seoul? where did those food come from? conjured out of thin air by Ryu Seong-Ryong?

So Japanese withdrawal from Seoul had nothing to do with the "Korean commando" that probably never existed, but thanks to the combined effort of Yi Sun Sin navy and righteous army.


I believe both sides lost somewhere around 1500~2000+ troops during that engagement.

@Maki
Ming Dynasty sent about 36,000 troops to Korea, and suffered some 1,000+ casualties during the liberation of Pyongyang, as well as some unspecified number at Byeogjegwan (let's assume 3000 for the sake of it), so it still had roughly 32,000 available troops in total. In contrast Seoul had about 5~60,000 Japanese troops if I am not mistaken.

Ryu Seong-Ryong still found plenty of food in Seoul So Japanese withdrawal from Seoul had nothing to do with the "Korean commando" that probably never existed,
but thanks to the combined effort of Yi Sun Sin navy and righteous army.
??

You do not seem to know about the war. Yoo Sung Ryong discovered what Seoul citizens have in their food. I
Foods burned by the Korean army are that 100,000 Japanese soldiers can eat.
It is an enormous amount. It is not a problem that can be solved by taking away the food of citizens.
And the Ming army defeated in the wall battles and fled,

The Ming army defeated in the byeogjegwan battles.
And the Ming army has not participated in the battle for the next six years.
so Seoul was safe from the threat of the Ming army
Do you still think that the Japanese withdrew from Seoul because of the Ming army?
Your thoughts are not rational.

The Japanese army was withdrawn from Seoul because the supply route was cut off by the Chosun army and the Chosun naval forces, and was greatly defeated in the Hansei province and exposed to the
threat of the Chosun army and the food that the soldiers eat is burned out
If you are in such a situation, can you keep the position?

Last edited by common sence; December 16th, 2017 at 08:36 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:34 AM   #46

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Originally Posted by common sence View Post
Chosun has been exchanged with Japan for thousands of years. Are you a complete idiot when you think the Japanese die 100,000 people by disease? The Chosun army killed the Japanese army in many battles. It killed 15,000 people in the Battle of Hanseong Mountain, 10,000 people in the Battle of Hansando and killed 60,000 others in the other battle.
But what is the battle that the Ming army killed the Japanese army? Give proof. I think you are a stupid human being without a proof.

minister Yi Hang-bok is an exaggerated expression to attract the Ming army. You are such an idiot rightly believing those words. The reason why Chosun attracted the Ming Dynasty was that the Ming Dynasty was also threatened by the Japanese military, so it was intended to cooperate and to reduce the damage of Joseon
I will ignore your personal attacks, but I will respond to your post. Yes, in most pre-modern wars, more combatants died from disease than from actual combat. Why should Imjin War be any different? Then, the Korean sources do claim 10,000 dead at the Haengju battle, but why should we trust them anymore than the Japanese sources? Both sides were prone to exaggerating the enemy casualties. And the general estimate for Hansando is about 10,000. What was the battle in which the Japanese lost 60,000? Because that would be a bigger disaster for them than Chinju, Haengju and Hansando combined.


Why was Korea almost overrun by the Japanese if they were so good and didn't need any external help. Why did they even allow the Ming into their country? I mean, eventually the presence of Chinese troops became a problem for the Joseon, so why let them in if you have everything covered?
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:39 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
The Korean army was so awesome that it needed Ming general Li Rusong to recapture Pyongyang.
It is true that the Ming army helped partly. However, the main character of the war was the Korean army. Do not distort history as if the Ming army were the protagonist of the war
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by wolflance View Post
So Annals of Seonjo is a Japanese book now? Wow, that's new to me.


You mean the Joseon army kept WINNING, until they lost seven out of eight provinces to the Japanese in two month? That certainly sound impressive...Wow, truly some territory they perserved there.

And the only one they didn't lose was successfully defended by...you guess it, Righteous army! It should be pretty clear by now that true Korean warrior spirit rest within the righteous army volunteers (and Yi's navy), not the army.
It was precisely one-sidedly defeated until two months after the war. So the Pyongyang (North Korean capital) was taken to the Japanese military.
because we could not prepare for the war. But two months later, in most wars, the Korean army began to win. On land and in the sea
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Old December 16th, 2017, 09:24 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
Ryu Seong-Ryong still found plenty of food in Seoul So Japanese withdrawal from Seoul had nothing to do with the "Korean commando" that probably never existed,
but thanks to the combined effort of Yi Sun Sin navy and righteous army.
??

You do not seem to know about the war. Yoo Sung Ryong discovered what Seoul citizens have in their food. I
Foods burned by the Korean army are that 100,000 Japanese soldiers can eat.
It is an enormous amount. It is not a problem that can be solved by taking away the food of citizens.
Don't made up history. I will directly quote Jingbirok.

『公私庐舍及各处仓谷遗在者,则使户曹专掌收拾。而仓卒典守无人,故龙山仓则令月串倹使看守。 』

“Government and private houses and stored grains from various places that are still left, (I will) assign 户曹 (note: an official type) to reorganize them. Since grain stores are left with no guards, thus Yongsan storage I will assign 月串倹使 (note: another official type) to guard it.”

『以城中餘谷除出百石,賑濟饑民。』
“And take one hundred seok from the leftover grain in the city, to relief the starving people.”

So not only Ryu Seong-Ryong mentioned "Government/Public (公)" storage, he SPECIFICALLY mentioned Yongsan storage (the supposed target of commando attack). He also SPECIFICALLY mentioned there's enough leftover food to relieve the starving civilians!

Where is your "Korean commando" now? Why was the storage still there if "Korean commando" burned it to the ground?

In the first place, Japanese army wasn't so nice as to NOT plunder the civilian for food. Even more so if they were starving (which apparently they weren't).


Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
And the Ming army defeated in the wall battles and fled,
They didn't. They never attacked Seoul in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
The Ming army defeated in the byeogjegwan battles.
True.


Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
And the Ming army has not participated in the battle for the next six years.
Not true. And this contradicts what you said earlier about "Ming defeated in the wall battles".

Numerous battles happened in Angang afterwards. Ming suffered quite a bit of losses there, but at least they didn't lose grip of Gyeongju.

Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
so Seoul was safe from the threat of the Ming army
Do you still think that the Japanese withdrew from Seoul because of the Ming army?
Your thoughts are not rational.
It is not. The Ming didn't press the attack, it doesn't mean they COULDN'T press the attack. Having an enemy army outside of your city certainly count as "threatened".

I will just dismiss the "irrational" charge.

Oh, and I said the major Ming contribution to the war were Pyongyang and Kaesong, specifically "two out of three most important Korean cities". I did not include Seoul if you mind checking what I wrote earlier.

Unlike Kaesong, the Japanese withdrawal from Seoul was due to the combined efforts from all sides, so I don't consider anyone as the sole contributor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
The Japanese army was withdrawn from Seoul because the supply route was cut off by the Chosun army and the Chosun naval forces, and was greatly defeated in the Hansei province and exposed to the
threat of the Chosun army and the food that the soldiers eat is burned out
If you are in such a situation, can you keep the position?
Not only their food wasn't burned by the made up "Korean commando", their supply route was harassed by the RIGHTEOUS ARMY VOLUNTEERS.

The Korean people suffered greatly during the war, so don't add insult to them by stealing their contribution and add to someone that didn't deserve it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
It was precisely one-sidedly defeated until two months after the war. So the Pyongyang (North Korean capital) was taken to the Japanese military.
because we could not prepare for the war.
Which didn't speak nicely about the competence of Korean army (and navy too, but Yi Sun Sin later redeemed the navy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by common sence View Post
But two months later, in most wars, the Korean army began to win. On land and in the sea
The "two months later" was precisely when Ming entered the war.

Last edited by wolflance; December 16th, 2017 at 10:08 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 10:04 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
I will ignore your personal attacks, but I will respond to your post. Yes, in most pre-modern wars, more combatants died from disease than from actual combat. Why should Imjin War be any different? Then, the Korean sources do claim 10,000 dead at the Haengju battle, but why should we trust them anymore than the Japanese sources? Both sides were prone to exaggerating the enemy casualties. And the general estimate for Hansando is about 10,000. What was the battle in which the Japanese lost 60,000? Because that would be a bigger disaster for them than Chinju, Haengju and Hansando combined.


Why was Korea almost overrun by the Japanese if they were so good and didn't need any external help. Why did they even allow the Ming into their country? I mean, eventually the presence of Chinese troops became a problem for the Joseon, so why let them in if you have everything covered?
Result of year
seq year month.day victory, battle Contents
1 1592 4.14 Japan Busan Jinseong (Gyeongsang) Busan Jinseong Fall
2 1592 4.15 Japan donglea castle donglea castle's fall
3 1592 4.18 Japan Milyang Castle Meryang Castle's Fall
4 1592 4.19 Japan Gimhae Castle Gimhae Sung
5 1592 4.21 Japan Gyeongju province Gyeongju castle fall
6 1592 4.24 Japan Sangju castle Sangju castle castle fall
7 1592 4.26 Japan Mungyeong Mungyeong loss
8 1592 4.28 Japan Tanggwadae Chungju castle
9 1592 4.28 Japan Chukwolryeong Breaking the Chukwolryeong
10 1592 5.2 Japan Hangang (Gyeonggi) Seoul Fall
11 1592 5.7 chosun naval okppo (Gyeongsang) 26 ship
12 1592 5.7 chosun naval happog 5 ships
13 1592 5.8 Chosun naval jukjin port 11 ships
14 1592 5.16 Chosun army haeyulyeong
15 1592 5.18 Japan Imjin River
16 1592 5.29 Chosun naval Sacheon 13 ships
17 1592 6.2 Chosun naval dangpo 21 ship
18 1592 6.5 Chosun naval danghangpo 26 ship
19 1592 6.5 japan Yongin Seoul Guards Distributed to 1600 Army of 50,000 Army -> from here. chosun start to victory
20 1592 6.5 japan hoeyangseong hoeyang castle Fall
21 1592 6.6 Righteous army mugae
22 1592 6.7 Chosun Navy Yongpo 7 ship
23 1592 6.1 Chosun Army Yeoju
24 1592 6.11 Chosun Army Dong Daewon
25 1592 6.12 Japan cheollyeong
26 1592 6.14 Japan wangseongtan Pyongyang castle fall
27 1592 6.15 Chosun Army Yecheon
28 1592 6.? Chosun Army Matan Han river raid raids
29 1592 6.19 Japan geum-wa
30 1592 6.25 Japan Unam (Jeolla)
31 1592 6.7 Japan chogye
32 1592 7.8 Japan ungchi
33 1592 7.8 Chosun Army Ichi
34 1592 7.8 Chosun naval Hansando 56 ship
35 1592 7.9 Japan gold acid but Jeollado defense success
36 1592 7.1 Chosun naval angolpo 20 ships
37 1592 7.10 Chosun Army Woo Chung Hyun
38 1592 7.17 Japan Pyongyang first battle in Pyongyang
39 1592 7.18 Japan Haejungwang Destroyed the Joseon army
40 1592 7.27 Chosun Army Yeongcheon Korean Army Recaptured Yeongcheon Castle.
41 1592 7.? Righteous army uilyeong A guerrilla warfare
42 1592 7.? Righteous army Hyeonbyeon Hyunpung recaptured.
43 1592 7.? Righteous army Youngsan Youngsan Recaptured.
44 1592 7.? Righteous army Ahn Sung-soo
45 1592 8.1 Japan Pyongyang Recapture battle
46 1592 8.1 Chosun Army Cheongju Cheongju Castle Recaptured
47 1592 8.2 Chosun Army Gyeongju Nohok surprise attack to japan
48 1592 8.3 Righteous army geochang
49 1592 8.18 Japan Gold Mountain Chosun army destroyed 700 By 10,000 Japanese soldiers but Protected Jeolla province
50 1592 8.2 Japan Gyeongju The annihilation of the Joseon Dynasty
51 1592 8.21 Japan Sungju castle Sungju castle failure
52 1592 8.22 Chosun Army Bonghwa
53 1592 8.25 Japan yeong-won Kim Jae-gab warriors died
54 1592 8.28 Righteous army Militia Coastal One-off attack repelling
55 1592 9.1 Chosun naval Pusan 100 ship
56 1592 9.8 Chosun army Gyeongju castle Gyeongju castle recapture
57 1592 9.11 Japan Sungju castle failure to Sungju castle Recaptur
58 1592 9.16 Chosun Army Kyungsung recapture
59 1592 9.2 Righteous army In-dong guard raids
60 1592 9.27 Japan Changwon castle Jersey battle in old age
61 1592 10.1 Japan jinju vicinity
62 1592 10.1 Chosun Army Jinju Province Jinju Successful Defense. kill 15000 japan
63 1592 10.18 Japan sangnyeong
64 1592 10.3 Chosun army Jusung
65 1592 11.1 Chosun Army Hamheung
66 1592 11.12 Chosun Army iwon
67 1592 11.? Chosun Army sangju
68 1592 12.? japan jungwhaw Invasion of Japan to Righteous army
69 1592 12.1 Chosun Army Gilju, ssangpo
70 1592 12.14 Righteous army sungju sungju recapture
71 1592 12.? Chosun Army toksan castle Repelling the Japanese army
72 1592 12.? Chosun Army, Hamchang Japanese Invasion
73 1593 1.9 chosun,ming Pyongyang Recapture of Pyongyang
74 1593 1.19 Righteous army Outside the gilju
75 1593 1.23 chosun/Righteous danchun
76 1593 1.27 Japanese byeogjegwan
77 1593 1.28 chosun/Righteous army gilju Gilju restoration
78 1593 1.3 Japan juksan chosun's attack failure
79 1593 2.12 Chosun Army haengju castle killed 15000 japan soldier
80 1594 2.3 Chosun Army juksan Juksan Recapture
81 1593 3.6 Chosun naval unchun 10 ships
82 1593 3.27 Chosun Army. Noh Won Pyung
83 1593 6.29 Japan Jinju Castle The annihilation of Jinju castle, but more than 20000 japan soldier killed
84 1593 8.6 chosun, ming Gyeongju
85 1593 9.29 chosun/Righteous haman,unchun Destroy transport army
86 1593 10.27 chosun army yungsun Destroy transport army
87 1593 12.2 chosun, ming angang Destroy transport army
88 1594 3.4 Chosun Naval danghang port 31 ship

Re-invasion of Japan
89 1597 7.16 Japan naval chilcheonlyang Destroyed the chosun naval
90 1597 8.15 Chosun army golyeong
91 1597 8.16 Japan hwangseog castle hwangseog castle fall
92 1597 8.16 Japan Namwon Province
93 1597 9.7 ming army jiksan
94 1597 9.14 Chosun army geumgu
95 1597 9.16 chosun naval myeonglyang 13 battleships, 333 japan
battleships repulsed
96 1597 12.28 Japan Gwangyang failure to attack Supply army
97 1598 1.4 japan ulsan failure to Ulsan reclamation
98 1598 3.24 chosun,ming samga
99 1598 4.8 chosun,ming Mujuju repel to japan attack
100 1598 4.2 chosun,ming hamuyang repel to japan attack
101 1598 6.? Chosun Army Suncheon repel to japan attack
102 1598 9.25 Chosun,ming Ulsan total attack
103 1598 10.1 japan Sacheon Allied general strike
104 1598 10.24 japan Suncheon
[COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]105 1598 11.19 Chosun naval Nogyun Battle 400 ship

By this battle, the Korean army could kill 100,000 Japanese soldiers sufficiently by 1593.
The Japanese army put in 28 million by 1596 and withdrew, and in 1597, 100,000 were committed, but it is estimated that approximately 240,000 were killed
Because Toyotomi Hideyoshi complained that there were no more soldiers to put in.

Last edited by common sence; December 16th, 2017 at 10:09 AM.
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