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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:26 PM   #81
Tak
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Can anyone provide a translation of Luis Frois's account of Ming armaments during the Siege of Pyongyang?
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96...#cite_note-454
Ming troops wore steel armor of appropriate thickness. The same armor covered their knees and hung down even as they rode their horses. The Japanese swords and/or spears, thought to be the best, were unable to cause harm to the Ming troops. The weapons of Japanese troops were dulled and worn through continuous fighting, but Chinese armaments remained robust throughout, keeping Japanese weapons away from causing harm.

Last edited by Tak; January 1st, 2018 at 06:31 PM.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:41 PM   #82
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Ming troops wore steel armor of appropriate thickness. The same armor covered their knees and hung down even as they rode their horses. The Japanese swords and/or spears, thought to be the best, were unable to cause harm to the Ming troops. The weapons of Japanese troops were dulled and worn through continuous fighting, but Chinese armaments remained robust throughout, keeping Japanese weapons away from causing harm.
Thanks for the translation. Since the Japanese could easily tell that these armors were made from steel I would venture to guess this is some form of lamellar/mail.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:49 PM   #83
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Thanks for the translation. Since the Japanese could easily tell that these armors were made from steel I would venture to guess this is some form of lamellar/mail.
I am sure it wasn’t kevlar.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:02 PM   #84
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I am sure it wasn’t kevlar.
I remembering reading a secondary source that quoted the Kuroda Kafu which mentioned bulletproof Ming armors.

I've been unable to pinpoint the quote however.
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 05:15 PM   #85
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Does anyone know how many men the Ming lost during the southern offensives to retake Ulsan,Sacheon and Suncheon?
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 07:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Wansui View Post
I remembering reading a secondary source that quoted the Kuroda Kafu which mentioned bulletproof Ming armors.

I've been unable to pinpoint the quote however.
Sounds like paper mail and really ancient bullets.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:53 PM   #87
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Does anyone know how many men the Ming lost during the southern offensives to retake Ulsan,Sacheon and Suncheon?
Sacheon was probably 7,000~10,000, out of a total of 21,000~29,000 troops. Indeed the casualty was very heavy.

Not sure about the other two.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:10 PM   #88
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Since every threads involving Korean history tend to devolve horribly, I just wanted to make a couple of points.

Ming involvement in Imjin, while indubitably helped Choson repel Japanese, was still a double edged sword. Choson basically had to break the bank and then some to support Ming troops, and Ming forces did their own share of damage, incidentally and intentionally, to the people of Choson.

In some ways, it might have been better off if Ming refused to help Choson. It was probably highly unlikely that Japan could afford to/was willing to conquer and occupy Choson even without Ming intervention. Choson never really recovered from Imjin until its fall any way(fittingly to Japan), mainly due to pure ineptness of its rulers. Without Chinese backing along with devastation left by Japanese, maybe Yi dynasty would have fallen earlier by someone with some balls and pragmatism, which were sorely lacking during much of the Choson period.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 07:33 AM   #89
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Well, from a purely strategic point of view, the Ming should have just waited for Japanese troops to cross the Yalu into Manchuria.

That way, the Ming could deploy its cavalry to full effectiveness, cavalry which would put their Takeda counterpart to shame (as Kiyomasa found out the hard way). The Ming could also enlist (the obligatory) Manchurian help, thus keeping the Manchurians on their toes to prevent their eventual uprising at a later date.

Though the Wanli Emperor's keenness in this war is rather puzzling. After all, this is a guy who spent most of his life as a hikikomori in protest to the Imperial Court, but somehow found a rejuvenated interest to Imperial business because a vassal state he has never visited, and its king he has never met, was in trouble.

Last edited by Tak; January 4th, 2018 at 07:40 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 07:56 AM   #90

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Quote:
Originally Posted by somename View Post
Since every threads involving Korean history tend to devolve horribly, I just wanted to make a couple of points.

Ming involvement in Imjin, while indubitably helped Choson repel Japanese, was still a double edged sword. Choson basically had to break the bank and then some to support Ming troops, and Ming forces did their own share of damage, incidentally and intentionally, to the people of Choson.

In some ways, it might have been better off if Ming refused to help Choson. It was probably highly unlikely that Japan could afford to/was willing to conquer and occupy Choson even without Ming intervention. Choson never really recovered from Imjin until its fall any way(fittingly to Japan), mainly due to pure ineptness of its rulers. Without Chinese backing along with devastation left by Japanese, maybe Yi dynasty would have fallen earlier by someone with some balls and pragmatism, which were sorely lacking during much of the Choson period.
The Japanese withdrew from Joseon in 1598, and the Japanese took over Korea in 1910. I wouldn't say the Japanese invasions in the 16th century led to the Japanese takeover of the 20th century. After the Manchu invasions, Korea entered a period of peace, in that period the state did experience a revival of fortunes due to the efforts of kings like Sukjong and Yeongjo. I would assume that frequent factional disputes and continued isolationism contributed more to the fall of Korea than the Imjin War.
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