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Old January 2nd, 2018, 09:50 PM   #91

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It is still in the process of refinement, TupSum, our OAT.
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 11:07 PM   #92

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"We next come to the. Orion period which, roughly speaking extended from 4,000 BC to 2500 BC, from the time when the vernal equinox was in the asterism of Ardra (Betelguese) to the time when it receded to the asterism of Krittikas (Pleiades). This is the most important period in the history of the Aryan civilization. A good many suktas (hymns) in the Rigveda, e.g., that of Vrishakapi, which contains a record of the beginning of the year where the legend was first conceived, were sung at this time, and several legends were either formed anew or developed from the older ones.

The Greeks and the Parsis appear to have left the common home during the latter part of this period as they have retained most of these legends, and even the attributes of the constellation of Mrigashiras, otherwise called Agrahayana, Orion or the Pauryeni. This was pre-eminently the period of the hymns. We can now easily understand why no confirmatory evidence about the Krittika (Pleiades) period is found either in the Rigveda or in the Greek and Parsi legends and traditions.*

The third or the Krittika-period commences with, the vernal equinox in the asterism of the Krittikas and extends up to the period recorded in the Vedanga Jyotisha, that is, from 2500 BC to 1400 BC. It was the period of the Taittiriya Samhita and several of the Brahmanas, The hymns of the RigVeda had already become antique and unintelligible by this time and the Brahmavadins indulged in speculations, often too free, about the real meaning of these hymns and legends, attributing the use of the foamy weapon used by Indra to a compact between him and Namuchi.

It was at this time that the Samhitas were probably compiled into systematic books and attempts made to ascertain the meanings of the oldest hymns and formulas. It was also during this period that the Indians appear to have come in contact with the Chinese, and the latter borrowed the Hindu Naksaatra system. I do not mean to say that Hindus might not have improved their system by mutual interchange of ideas as they did when they came to know of Greek astronomy. But the system was decidedly and purely of Aryan origin being handed down from the remotest or the pre-Orion period in Vedic literature."
"Orion or the Researches on Antiquity of Vedas", B.G. Tilak
Chapter VIII, pages 206-208

* I take the intervening period to be a period of unrest or migration when there was not much religious or literary activity.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 06:29 AM   #93

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
It is still in the process of refinement, TupSum, our OAT.
Here some info about that pre-indo-european culture:

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/1...ania-neolithic

Click the image to open in full size.

4800 to 3000BC, although this 3000BC is probably not correct.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:33 AM   #94

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Cucuteni is in West. IMHO, Indo-Europens moved first towards West and then North (Sintashta) and then only towards East. So, 4,000 BC ties very well with that. In North and East it comes to about 3-2,000 BC.

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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:20 PM   #95
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I won't comment on the agriculture bit, but Aatreya's geographic comments tally with the images you've posted.
Not really, its the ither way around due to the words he selected to describe what he meant but ..... meh .

What is more intersting is ....
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Sub-Tropical however is perhaps an inaccurate term for NW India. Temperate and Arid, though going by environmental-historical work on the Monsoons, more temperate in the past. the Monsoon has weakened in the NW over the centuries, and some speculate that it earlier used to cover the Sahara too, which is why it was originally more lush. This weakening is believed to have caused the decline of the Harappans. I think there's also a general reference to a bronze age collapse, though I haven't looked at whether its been compared to the Monsoon per se.
I think it could be cyclic ; see 'Sahara Pump' theory. Fluctuations would effect the whole area / systems OR fluctuations in the system made Sahara Pump a 'symptom' of an overall dynamic. So, repeated cycles, over time may have lead to continual changes and declines in various peoples and their migrations. For example, there was possibly an earlier migration through the 'green Sahara' phases, into 'Barbary', as evidenced by some archeology, but it is thought to have 'died out' .

The Monsoon fluctuates , periods of hot and cold fluctuate, climate has cycles within cycles, some shorter term and some very long. Some times they peak or fall together. ( Yes, this too is incorporated in Aboriginal knowledge , their system is like an orbital gear arrangement { a bit like Mayan calender} and is what is possibly described in Vendidad . )

I have been involved in interesting discussions about Bronze Age Collapse , I ( and a few others ) consider it is a case of 'perfect storm' - no one influence but a complex ( ever had one of those days when everything seems to go wrong ? )

Last edited by specul8; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:30 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Here some info about that pre-indo-european culture:

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/1...ania-neolithic

Click the image to open in full size.

4800 to 3000BC, although this 3000BC is probably not correct.
Great stuff! Thanks .

Tattoos ? . They may have 'permanently marked' their pots, but they need not have done that to themselves. perhaps the figures represent those in some type of ritual? In that case they need only have been painted on. Although the legs seem suggestive of 'clothing' .
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 04:35 PM   #97

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Here some info about that pre-indo-european culture:

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/1...ania-neolithic

Click the image to open in full size.

4800 to 3000BC, although this 3000BC is probably not correct.
Gorgeous, fertile looking, curvaceous, classical female configuration. Nothing like them dead-linear, scrawny, clothes-hanger, skin-on-bone types being hawked around in movies & fashion mags these days. No wonder those ancient pre-PIE & PIE dudes loved sowing their wild OAT around, spreading out from Anatolia to everywhere around.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; January 3rd, 2018 at 04:38 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 12:12 AM   #98

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Gorgeous, fertile looking, curvaceous, classical female configuration. Nothing like them dead-linear, scrawny, clothes-hanger, skin-on-bone types being hawked around in movies & fashion mags these days. No wonder those ancient pre-PIE & PIE dudes loved sowing their wild OAT around, spreading out from Anatolia to everywhere around.
Seems South East Asians just like South Asians do not much like Barbara dolls.

"Your bountiful globe like breasts, radiant with pearl necklaces that shimmer in starry rows, curve your tender creeper like waist, ringèd by three wavy folds, O ocean of beauty, woman bearing the vallaki vina, raining riches on your minions.

Your sensuous hips, engirdled by an exquisite ruby encrusted waistband, rivals the beauty of the golden plateaus of the halcyon Meru, woman, mellow as moonlight."

Śyamalādaṇḍakam (ON TRANSLATING THE DIVINE WOMAN by Usha Kishore | Poetry at Sangam)

Last edited by Aupmanyav; January 4th, 2018 at 12:14 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 12:20 AM   #99

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Originally Posted by specul8 View Post
.. and is what is possibly described in Vendidad.)
While I agree to environmental changes, it does not answer my objections listed in Vikings and Aryas
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