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-   -   Anatolian homeland for Indo-Europeans? (http://historum.com/asian-history/132135-anatolian-homeland-indo-europeans.html)

Dreamhunter December 26th, 2017 08:38 PM

Anatolian homeland for Indo-Europeans?
Now, I'm not promoting any one hypothesis over any other for this apparently keenly debated subject, but rather just trying to stimulate even further discussion on it.

Anatolian hypothesis (adopted & adapted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia)

The so called Anatolian hypothesis was first developed by Colin Renfrew, a British archeologist, in 1987. It proposes that PIE people first dispersed from out of Neolithic Anatolia, and is now the main rival to the Kurgan hypothesis aka Steppe Theory, which is currently still viewed as the more favoured school of thought among the academe.

Now, this Anatolian hypothesis suggests that PIE speakers lived in Anatolia in the Neolithic age, and relates the spread of IE languages with expansion occurring during the so called Neolithic revolution of 7th - 6th millennia BC. It then proposes that IE languages later spread in peace by demic diffusion into Europe from Anatolia from around 7,000 BC with the advance of Neolithic farming, with later IE migrations subsequently supplanting earlier IE varieties.

The expansion of agriculture from the Middle East would have diffused three language families: Indo-European toward Europe, Dravidian toward Pakistan and India, and Afro-Asiatic toward Arabia and North Africa. Reacting to criticism, Renfrew later revised his proposal to the effect of taking a pronounced Indo-Hittite position. Renfrew's revised views place only PIE in the 7th millennium BC in Anatolia, proposing the Balkans as the homeland of Proto-Indo-European proper around 5000 BC, which he explicitly identified as the Old European culture as proposed by marija Gimbutas. Renfrew thus still locates the original source of the Indo-European languages in Anatolia around 7,000 BC.

However, reconstructions of a Bronze Age PIE society, based on vocabulary items like "wheel", do not necessarily hold for the Anatolian branch, which appears to have separated at an earlier stage, prior to the invention of wheeled vehicles.


According to Renfrew (2004), Indo-European spread in the following steps:
  1. Around 6500 BC: Pre-PIE, in Anatolia, splits into Anatolian and Archaic Proto-Indo-European, the language of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European farmers who migrate to Europe in the initial farming dispersal. Archaic Proto-Indo-European languages occur in the Balkans (Starčevo–Kőrös culture), in the Danube valley (Linear Pottery culture), and possibly in the Bug-Dniestr area (Eastern Linear pottery culture).
  2. Around 5000 BC: Archaic PIE splits into Northwestern Indo-European (the ancestor of Italic, Celtic, and Germanic), in the Danube valley, Balkan PIE (corresponding to Gimbutas' Old European culture) and Early Steppe PIE (ancestor of Tocharian).
The main strength of this farming-based hypothesis lies in its linking of the spread of IE languages with an archaeologically known event, i.e. the spread of farming, which scholars often assume involved significant population shifts.

Now, over to ya all, guys. Start firing on all cylinders, by all means.

Dreamhunter December 26th, 2017 09:00 PM

Well, at least from what I'm reading, the Anatolian hypothesis is being mentioned as a major rival to the Kurgan hypothesis.

Dreamhunter December 27th, 2017 02:04 AM

Well, we know already that Central Asia was once the playground of Indo-Aryan & Indo-Iranian peoples, before they were progressively pushed out, westward, southwestward & southward, by later arriving Turkic peoples, who at the same time also interbred with them during this pushing-out process.

So, anyways, this Battle of 10 Kings, around what time wud you estimate it to hv occurred?

lexell December 27th, 2017 02:11 AM

In short, no. Most scholars favour the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives // Annual Review of Linguistics, Vol. 1: 199-219 (Volume publication date January 2015) by David W. Anthony and Don Ringe

Archaeological evidence and linguistic evidence converge in support of an origin of Indo-European languages on the Pontic-Caspian steppes around 4,000 years BCE. The evidence is so strong that arguments in support of other hypotheses should be reexamined.

Dreamhunter December 27th, 2017 02:43 AM

Fair enough. And BTW, our Out of Anatolia map does show some movements into the Pontic Steppe area, from areas outside of it, around the 5,000 BC - 4,000 BC period. Like the Thessalio-Danubian branch, for example.

So, with the Anatolian hypothesis positing an out-of-Anatolia outspreading beginning as early as 7,000 BC, there is actually no clash with the Kurgan Steppe theory, as far as I understand it, at this stage of the game.

Hakka Nyin December 27th, 2017 03:08 AM


Originally Posted by Dreamhunter (Post 2876254)
Well, we know already that Central Asia was once the playground of Indo-Aryan & Indo-Iranian peoples, before they were progressively pushed out, westward, southwestward & southward, by later arriving Turkic peoples, who at the same time also interbred with them during this pushing-out process.

So, anyways, this Battle of 10 Kings, around what time wud you estimate it to hv occurred?

yes you are right, from xinjiang, central asia, northern india, afgan, pakistan, iran, irak, turkey, caucasus mountain region are indo-european. there were replaced and/or mixed with turkic invader from altai mountain (western mongolia)

we are all know turkic are cousin of mongol and ofcourse they have oriental looking people, not like today turkey population, probably those turkish in turkey are mixed people of native indo-european with turkic invader.

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 52 Hadith 179
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks;
people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses.
Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

lexell December 27th, 2017 03:14 AM

From the steppes a certain branch of Indo-Europeans (Tocharians) went to Xinjiang. Indo-Iranic speakers migrated south to Turkmenistan (original population was Indo-Iranic till 10th century), Afghanistan and Iran. And further south-east to north-western India. The oldest chariot is found in what's today southern Ural - north-western Kazakhstan. That was settlement of proto Indo-Iranic speakers. There's a comprohensive genetic study shows a massive migration from the steppes into central and western Europe during Bronze age.

lexell December 27th, 2017 03:18 AM

People of Anatolia were responsible for spreading farming into Europe. There was also some gene flow from Anatolia. But the Indo-European and Indo-Iranic languages spread from Pontic-Caspian region. It's also evident from the very languages these people speak. Read the article I posted above.

lexell December 27th, 2017 03:36 AM

David Anthony is authority on PIE. He is also the author of the famous book "The horse, the Wheel, and Language".
Don Ringe is well known linguist specialisting in Indo-European languages

They co-authored an article summarising all material gathered so far, publishing it last year. The article I posted above.

Book on the subject by Anthony : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ho...,_and_Language

PS You post something worthwhile, and people stick to obsolete hypotheses.

Anyway, most scholars will agree on geographic location of PIE homeland and linguistic tree of Indo-European languages. As you can see only Tocharians went east from the steppes.


Aupmanyav December 27th, 2017 04:35 AM

My reading does not support it. Hittis came to Anatolia around 2,500 BC. There were older Indo-European culture in the Volga delta region. Seroglazovo. That is where they started their new travels. Of course, the older one was from sub-Arctic region to Volga to escape the last glacial maximum. :)

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