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Old February 4th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #21
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Power.

An isolated sovereign has less threats to power.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 08:32 AM   #22

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Obviously power was a major issue. However it was not the only one. If so, there would be no trade in any country during any period.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 08:47 AM   #23
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I have composed a brief (exceedingly so) time-line that should aid in this discussion. I will compose a brief write up that goes in to more detail when my schedule permits, but in the meantime this should contribute to the discussion, or at least add some factual basis to points already raised.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1543 - The first Western guns are thought to have been introduced by the Portuguese in 1543. A Portuguese ship, having been blown off course from China to Okinawa, made her way to Tanegashima.


1565 - Louis Frois, a catholic missionary, met Oda Nobunaga, who befriended the jesuit in an attempt to discomfort his buddhist enemies.


1570 - Portugese act as an intermediary, transporting Japanese silver to china, who had banned japanese ships due to piratical activity. Portugal transported over 20 metric tons of japanese silver a year to china in exchange for silk, sugar, medicine, and dye.


1580 - Jesuits acquire Nagasaki from a warlord interested in promoting trade with the portugese.
Warlord name = Omura Sumitada, who converted to christianity and ceded nagasaki bay as a gift to the jesuits. known as the “christian daimyo” “kirishitan daimyo.”


Warlords who tried to unite japan under secular authority grew suspicious of christianity, mostly because it challenged traditional japanese loyalties between lord and retainer.


1587 - Japanese begin to repress christianity, intensifying their persecutions over the next 9 years.


1593 - Franciscan monks arrive in japan from the philippines, sent as ambassadors from the spanish colonial authority at manilla. Rather than conducting diplomatic negotiations however, the friars began preaching to the people, in direct opposition to the laws of Hideyoshi Toyotomi. In response, Hideyoshi ordered the first bloody persecution of christianity in japan, crucifying twenty six christians, 6 franciscans, 3 jesuits, and 17 converts, on february 5, 1597, they became known as the Twenty-six saints of japan.


1614 - Tokugawa Ieyasu decided that missionary activity undermined the social order and was not essential to foreign trade (see edict, historum, also p. 180 sources) Catholics expelled under threat of execution, and those who converted were forced to recant or be tortured and killed. The shogunate officially broke off all relations with catholic countries in 1624. “pernicious document” of social subversion.


1600 first dutch arrive, 1613, first english arrive
Protestant countries begin to dominate trade in Japan after catholics banned. Japanese try to regulate trade by forcing foreign merchants to trade at the Dejima in Nagasaki. They also attempted to keep precious metals within japan by substituting sugar and silk.


1635 - shogunate issued maritime ban that forbade all japanese from sailing overseas and ordered all japanese to return to the islands or face permanent exile. The shogunate later banned the construction of all ocean going ships. 1641, dutch forced to move to the dejima in nagasaki bay.


1639 - portugese merchants expelled, allowed to stay 4 years after catholic clergy forced to leave.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 08:49 AM   #24

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I'm very poorly versed on the Far East, but this is a very appealing explanation, to me.

Intuitively, it would seem the Japanese were doing something right in the long run, compared to their neighbours; and this would be the most striking policy difference.

China was definately more liberal about foreigners and trade, and look where that got them!
however the reason japan was succesfull in the end was because they let foreigners in... (only a select few, but still!)
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Old February 5th, 2011, 08:52 AM   #25
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however the reason japan was succesfull in the end was because they let foreigners in... (only a select few, but still!)

That's a rather general statement. Upon what do you base this assumption?
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Old February 5th, 2011, 11:16 AM   #26

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One thing you haven't mentioned is that most of the Christian daimyo had sided with the anti-Tokugawa forces during the battle of Sekigahara, and the last great rebellion against them, the Shimabara rebellion in 1637, was largely a Christian affair.

All this served to reinforce the bakufu's view that Christianity was a challenge to their authority.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 11:33 AM   #27
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One thing you haven't mentioned is that most of the Christian daimyo had sided with the anti-Tokugawa forces during the battle of Sekigahara, and the last great rebellion against them, the Shimabara rebellion in 1637, was largely a Christian affair.

All this served to reinforce the bakufu's view that Christianity was a challenge to their authority.

excellent point, I neglected to mention that. Thanks.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 04:12 AM   #28

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1580 - Jesuits acquire Nagasaki from a warlord interested in promoting trade with the portugese.
Warlord name = Omura Sumitada, who converted to christianity and ceded nagasaki bay as a gift to the jesuits. known as the “christian daimyo” “kirishitan daimyo.”
This is slightly misleading, as it implies that there was only one Christian daimyo.

There were a number of daimyo who converted to Christianity, including Otomo Sorin (baptised as Don Francisco, and who was previously a Buddhist monk, and met personally with St. Francis Xavier), Kuroda Kanbei (baptised as Don Simeon, one of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's chief strategists) and Konishi Yukinaga (who played a prominent part in the invasion of Korea and the battle of Sekigahara), to name a few.

There are claims that Oda Nobunaga was baptised, but I don't personally think they are credible.

Christian daimyo tended to be (relatively) cooperative, whereas Buddhist daimyo were quite often at war with one another.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 05:45 AM   #29
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This is slightly misleading, as it implies that there was only one Christian daimyo.

There were a number of daimyo who converted to Christianity, including Otomo Sorin (baptised as Don Francisco, and who was previously a Buddhist monk, and met personally with St. Francis Xavier), Kuroda Kanbei (baptised as Don Simeon, one of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's chief strategists) and Konishi Yukinaga (who played a prominent part in the invasion of Korea and the battle of Sekigahara), to name a few.

There are claims that Oda Nobunaga was baptised, but I don't personally think they are credible.

Christian daimyo tended to be (relatively) cooperative, whereas Buddhist daimyo were quite often at war with one another.
Yes, I know, but Omura (baptized Dom Bartolomeu) is often given special attention in texts, because he ceded such a large territory to the Society of Jesus. But good point, I should have made that more clear.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 06:24 AM   #30

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Yes, I know, but Omura (baptized Dom Bartolomeu) is often given special attention in texts, because he ceded such a large territory to the Society of Jesus. But good point, I should have made that more clear.
I know you know (or rather, I assume ), but readers who are less au fait with the history of Christians in Japan might be confused

And of course, "Dom" is more correct than "Don", since they'd have been baptised by Portugeuse not Spanish misionaries, but I put the Spanish versions in because I have no idea how to type characters with accents

For the sake of amusement, this story that Jesus is buried in Japan, and studied theology there:
http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm
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