Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 5th, 2012, 04:27 AM   #91
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 103

What Joshua has drawn our attention to, the advanced nature of medieval India in all areas, economy, ship building and trade, industry - steel, textiles, agriculture etc, are well known and comparatively easy to verify with the tools at our disposal today.

They deserve separate threads.

Would delving into these topics, not divert our attention from the topic of this thread?

RaviChaudhary
ravichaudhary is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 5th, 2012, 05:26 AM   #92
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,651

Quote:
The British only really started conquering significant amounts of India in the 18th century, and by that time they had been sailing around the world for a couple of centuries, but in all those centuries no Indian ships sailed to the Americas, Indian ships were not sailing to China, Indian ships were not sailing to Europe, and they were not sailing to Australia.
I wonder seriously how much of your knowledge is based on actually reading of primary texts. Indian shipping and navigation lacked? They did not sail around the world? Are you serious?

Do you know the oldest dock was built in India in 2500BCE?

Alright, facts:

IVC period:
The ancient shipbuilding in India goes back to the third millennium BC in the Harappan times (Indus Civilisation). The Harappans built the first tide dock of the world for berthing and servicing ships at the port town of Lothal in about 2500 BC. For inland waterways, flat bottomed boats of the type suggested by the terracotta models were used. An engraving on a seal from mohenjodaro represents a sailing ship with a high prow, the stern was made of reeds. In the centre, it had a square cabin. Out of the five miniature clay models of boats, one is complete and represents a ship with sails. The latter has a sharp keel, a pointed prow and a high flat stern.
Vedic period(SC)
Later Vedic Period and the Mauryan Era – (600 to 200 BC)
During the later Vedic Period ( 600 to 200 BC), there are references to ocean voyages, description of boats and passages. The earliest reference of maritime activities in India occurs in Rig Veda; “ Do thou whose countenance is turned to all side send off our adversaries, as if in a ship to the opposite shore; do thou convey us in a ship across the sea for our welfare. “ — Rig Veda 1, 97, 7 & 8
Mauraya period:
For the later period we have a remarkable work, Kautilya Arthasastra, which was written during 321 to 300 BC. During the Maurya period, a Superintendent of ships (Navadyaksa) was appointed for building and maintenance of boats. There are accounts in Pali literature on the size of vessels which could accommodate 700 passengers. We have the Buddhist Jatakas of the 5th/6th century BC, which give us the tales of overseas travel. We know that ocean going ships existed then, but unfortunately the material is meager in the description of vessels in details.

Gupta period:
Post Gupta Era
The Sanskrit work, Yukti Kalpataru of post-Gupta era mentions of vessels with single, double, treble and four masts, and presumably as many sails. From this we gather information on the art of shipbuilding in ancient India. In the use of metals, in ship construction, the work recommends gold, silver and copper or an alloy of two or more of these elements. It strongly forbids the use of iron, particularly for joining sides and bottom, for fear of exposing ships to the influence of magnetic rocks in the sea.
Sources: Shipbuilding in India » Indian Defence Review

More information:
Indian_maritime_history Indian_maritime_history

Citations:
Marco Polo found Socotra a prey to multitudes of Hindu pirates who encamped there and sold off their booty. He speaks of Aden as a "port to which many ships of India come with their cargo." He also gives details regarding the size, form fittings and mode of repairing of Indian ships. He remarks about the strength of Indian ships and says that they were built to last a hundred years. Marco Polo saw ships so large as to require a crew of 300 men, and other ships that were manned by crews of 200 and 150 men. Friar Odoric (A.D. 1321) traveled in a ship owned by a Gujarati Rajput that carried a load of 700 people.

Historian Vincent Smith remarks: "This is a confirmation of the account we have of those large ships from the time of Agatharcides down to the 16th century, the ships of Gujarat which traversed the Indian ocean in all ages."

There is an even earlier mention of Rajput ships sailing between Sumena (Somnath) and China in Yule's Cathay.

Abd-er-Razzak (A.D. 1442) informs us that

"from Calicut vessels continually sailing for Mecca, which are for the most part laden with pepper. The inhabitants of Calicut are adventurous sailors, and pirates do not dare to attack the vessels of Calicut." Nicolo Conti (15th century) acknowledged that the "natives of India build some ships larger than ours." In 1510 Albuquerque met Hindu sailors and traders in Java and Malacca.

Sir John Malcolm (1769 - 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian entered the service of the East India Company wrote about Indian vessels that they:

"Indian vessels "are so admirably adapted to the purpose for which they are required that, not withstanding their superior science, Europeans were unable, during an intercourse with India for two centuries, to suggest or at least to bring into successful practice one improvement. "

(source: Journal of Royal Asiatic Society, Vol. I and India and World Civilization - By D P Singhal part II p. 76 - 77).
Very clear facts that Indian traveled far and wide in their ships and established colonies all over through peaceful trading:
The Hindus had already in use a magnetic compass known as Matsya Yantra for determining direction. The work "Merchants Treasure" written at Cairo by Baylak al Kiljaki mentions the magnetic needle as being in use in the Indian Ocean. The route that Fa-hien, the celebrated Chinese monk, took to return home after his stay in India (412-413) is fully described by him. Leaving Tramralipti, the Orissa port, he took fourteen days to reach Sri Lanka. From there he embarked for Java and called at Nicobars (Nakka-varam), the island of the naked. From Nicobar the ship passed through the Straits of Malacca into the Pacific. Oceanic travel was therefore well advanced in the fifth century and Indian mariners not merely crossed the Bay of Bengal at its widest point, but sailed far out into the Pacific.

Further, the Hindus had developed great skill in building ocean-going ships of great strength and durability. The participation of Hindus in the navigational activities of the Red Sea is also borne out by the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, a second century farce in the Greek language in which the conversation between certain characters is in a language which some scholars have identified as being South Indian. Besides, there are extensive allusions to maritime affairs and to long voyages in early Tamil literature. Tamil scholars have counted no less than 1,800 nautical words in that language.

(source: India and the Indian Ocean - K. M. Panikkar The MacMillan Company, copyright 1945 p. 26-27).
Professor Max Duncker, author of History of Antiquity, says, that ship-building was known in ancient India about 2000 B.C. It is thus clear that the Hindus navigated the ocean from the earliest times, and that they carried on trade on an extensive scale with all the important nations of the whole world.

A. M. T. Jackson writes: "The Buddhist Jatakas and some of the Sanskrit law books tell us that ships from Bhroach and Supara traded with Babylon (Baveru) from the 8th to the 6th century B.C."

(source: Bombay City Gazetteer, Vol. II, chapter IV, p.3).

Rev. J. Foulkes says: "The fact is now scarcely to be doubted that the rich Oriental merchandise of the days of King Hiram and King Soloman had its starting place in the seaports of the Deccan, and that with a very high degree of probability some of the most esteemed of the spices which was carried into Egypt by the Midianitish merchants of Genesis."

(source: The Indian Antiquary, Vol. VIII).
Reginald S. Le May (1885 - ) author of The culture of South-East Asia; the heritage of India has observed:

"India, indeed, began to exercise a profound cultural influence on her neighbors to the eastward - Burma, Siam, Malaya, Cambodia, Java and Sri Lanka all falling beneath her sway. And this, as far as one can may judge, almost entirely as a result of trading and peaceful penetration by missionaries, merchants and others, and not by force of arms." "The beginnings of Indian colonization overseas eastward go back a very long way in time and it is almost certain that the results seen today were, in the main, not achieved by military expedition, but by peaceful trading and religious teaching - and thereby all the more permanent."
From the fifth century to the tenth the command of the Malacca Straits was in the hands of a great Indian naval power, based on Sumatra known to history as the Sri Vijaya Empire. This State included much of Peninsular Malaya, Sumatra and the Western half of Java besides numerous island principalities. I'Tsing who resided for some years in that Kingdom says that the King possessed numerous ships which sailed regularly between India and Sri Vijaya as also between Sumatra and China.

The Sri Vijaya Kings maintained a powerful navy which swept the sea of pirates and corsairs. Their naval power, well attested by their continuous raids on the coasts of Champa and Annam, is recorded both in local inscriptions and in Chinese annals, (e.g Po Nagar Stelae inscription of King Satya Varman 784 A.D. and in Yang Tikuh inscription of Indra Varman I, dated 787). With the Straits of Malacca firmly under their control and with their authority extending over the far flung group of islands, the Sri Vijaya Kings were in a position to enforce their rule over the Indian waves. Further, they were also closely connected with the Indian Kingdoms of the Eastern side of the Bay of Bengal especially with the Kalinga monarchs of Orissa.

Till the end of the tenth century, that is, for a period of nearly 500 years, the Sri Vijaya Kings were the Lords of the Ocean. But in 1007 the Chola Emperor Rajendra fitted out a powerful navy and challenged the might of Sri Vijaya. he not only defeated the opposing navy, but captured Kedah and established the Chola power on the Malaya Peninsula.

(source: The Mythology of the Hindus - with Notices of Various Mountain and Island Tribes, Inhabiting the Two Peninsulas of India and the Neighbouring Islands - By Charles Coleman p. 861).
Alain Danielou (1907- 1994) son of French aristocracy, author of numerous books on philosophy, religion, history and arts of India has written:

"India's naval dockyards, which belonged to the state, were famous throughout history. The sailors were paid by the state, and the admiral of the fleet hired the ships and crew to tradesmen for transporting goods and passengers. When the British annexed the country much later on, they utilized the Indian dockyards - which were much better organized then those in the West - to build most of the ships for the British navy, for as long as ships were made of wood."

(source: A Brief History of India - By Alain Danielou p. 106).
Clear evidence that the Indian shipping and navigation technology was superior to the Europeans:
"...an Indian naval pilot, named Kanha, was hired by Vasco da Gama to take him to India. Contrary to European portrayals that Indians knew only coastal navigation, deep-sea shipping had existed in India. Indian ships had been sailing to islands such as the Andamans, Lakshdweep and Maldives, around 2,000 years ago. Kautiliya's shastras describe the times that are good and bad for seafaring. In the medieval period, Arab sailors purchased their boats in India. The Portuguese also continued to get their boats from India, and not from Europe. Shipbuilding and exporting was a major Indian industry, until the British banned it. There is extensive archival material on the Indian Ocean trade in Greek, Roman, and Southeast Asian sources."

(source: Book Series on Indian Science & Technology).
Finally, did India sail to the Americas before Columbus:

Click the image to open in full size.

Further reading: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Seafarin...ient_India.htm

Therefore, you were absolutely wrong(as you were wrong on Indian education) on Indian shipping and navigation technology. Not only was it superior to the Europeans, the Europeans had their ships built by the Indians! The reason for your ignorance about India's maritime history I can only put down to bad education. This is hardly surprising, as I said India's scientific, technological and philosophical achievements are not duly acknowledged. India was a fully fledged naval power as far as 3000BCE. Indians beat the Europeans not only to science, philosophy and industry - but also to colonization! The Indian global footprint can be seen as far as the Americas and the Polynesians. Some scholars are brave enough to challenge the current dogma that Columbus discovered the Americas.

Last edited by Joshua A; December 5th, 2012 at 05:41 AM.
Joshua A is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #93
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,651

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
What Joshua has drawn our attention to, the advanced nature of medieval India in all areas, economy, ship building and trade, industry - steel, textiles, agriculture etc, are well known and comparatively easy to verify with the tools at our disposal today.

They deserve separate threads.

Would delving into these topics, not divert our attention from the topic of this thread?

RaviChaudhary
You have a fair point, we are sort of diverging from the topic! I think a wider topic should be "Ancient and Medieval India and its achievements" or "Misrepresentations of Ancient and Medieval India"

I do think there is a slight connection in talking about India and its scholarly and scientific culture here - because a very grave allegation is being made against India in this thread

1) She did not record her history
2) Her history is wrong, it does not go back 6000 years and she misdated her kings by 1200 years!

My arguments on this is

1) Absolute and total rubbish, flies in the face of the fact that Indians had an entire separate branch of learning called "History" and recorded it in detail in their Puranas and other texts. They also had a calender and they made very specific measurements of astronomical alignments which will help us date many of the events.
2) Given the fact that Indian had a highly advanced scientific and scholarly civilization with universities, academic communities and peer-review processes it is extremely unlikely they could have got their dates so wrong. According to the SC, all of these scholarly institutions were in place as early as 600BCE. Chandragupta Mauraya appears in 300BCE - then how the heck could they placed him in 1500BCE in their chronicles, and how could such a grave error not have been corrected? The answer is very simple: Chandragupta Mauraya was not in 300BCE, he was in 1500BCE. Sandocrottus is Chandragupta Gupta(Chandragupta 1)
Joshua A is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #94
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 103

Joshua

The inscription you are referring to is commonly known at the Ashoka Major Rock Edict MRE or RE XIII, of Kandahar in modern Afghanistan.

It is in Aramaic , with a Greek rendering above

It also refers to a people ' Yonas' who are taken to be Greek.

It contains the names of 5 Yona kings , who are interpreted as being Greek.

The suggested equivalency is taken to be Yona= Yavana.

Yavana is taken to be Greek.

That is the version that is being taught

There are those who oppose it

Ravi Chaudhary
ravichaudhary is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #95
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,651

I was reading the Vishnu Purana the section which mentions the dynasties of kings which rule India from the beginning of Pradyota:
THE last of the Vríhadratha dynasty, Ripunjaya, will have a minister named Sunika 1, who having killed his sovereign, will place his son Pradyota upon the throne 2: his son will be Pálaka 3; his son will be Viśákhayúpa 4; his son will be Janaka 5; and his son will be Nandivarddhana 6. These five kings of the house of Pradyota will reign over the earth for a hundred and thirty-eight years 7. The next prince will be Śiśunaga 8; his son will be Kákavarńa 9; his son will be Kshemadharman 10; his son will be Kshatraujas 11; his son will be Vidmisára 12; his son will be Ájátaśatru 13; his son will be Dharbaka 14; his son will be Udayáśwa 15; his son will also be Nandivarddhana; and his son will be Mahánandi 16. These ten Śaiśunágas will be kings of the earth for three hundred and sixty-two years 17.

The son of Mahánanda will be born of a woman of the Śúdra or servile class; his name will be Nanda, called Mahápadma, for he will be exceedingly avaricious 18. Like another Paraśuráma, he will be the annihilator of the Kshatriya race; for after him the kings of the earth will be Śúdras. He will bring the whole earth under one umbrella: he will have eight sons, Sumálya and others, who will reign after Mahápadma; and he and his sons 19 will govern for a hundred years. The Brahman Kaut́ilya will root out the nine Nandas 20
Upon the cessation of the race of Nanda, the Mauryas will possess the earth, for Kant́ilya will place Chandragupta 21 on the throne: his son will be Vindusára 22; his son will be Aśokavarddhana 23; his son will be Suyaśas 24; his son will be Daśaratha; his son will be Sangata; his son will be Śáliśúka; his son will be Somaśarmman; his son will be Saśadharman; and his successor will be Vrihadratha. These are the ten Mauryas, who will reign over the earth for a hundred and thirty-seven years 26. The dynasty of the Śungas will next become possessed of the sovereignty; for Pushpamitra, the general of the last Maurya prince, will put his master to death, and ascend the throne 27: his son will be Agnimitra 28; his son will be Sujyesht́ha 29; his son will be Vasumitra 30; his son will be Árdraka 31; his son will be Pulindaka 32; his son will be Ghoshavasu 33; his son will be Vajramitra 34; his son will be Bhágavata 35; his son will be Devabhúti 36. These are the ten Śungas, who will govern the kingdom for a hundred and twelve years 37. Devabhúti, the last Śunga prince, being addicted to, immoral indulgences, his minister, the Kańwa named Vasudeva will murder him, and usurp the kingdom: his son will be Bhúmimitra; his son will be Náráyańa; his son will be Suśarman. These four Káńwas will be kings of the earth for forty-five years 38. Suśarman the Káńwa will be killed by a powerful servant named Śipraka, of the Ándhra tribe, who will become king, and found the Ándhrabhritya dynasty 39: he will be succeeded by his brother Krishńa 40; his son will be Śrí Śátakarńi 41; his son will be Púrnotsanga 42; his son will be Śátakarńi (2nd) 43; his son will be Lambodara 44; his son will be Ivílaka 45; his son will be Meghaswáti 46; his son will be Patumat 47; his son will be Arisht́akarman 48; his son will be Hála 49; his son will be Tálaka 50; his son will be Pravilasena 51; his son will be Sundara, named Śátakarńi 52; his son will be Chakora Śátakarńi 53; his son will be Śivaswáti 54; his son will be Gomatiputra 55; his son will be Pulimat 56; his son will be Śivaśrí Śátakarńi 57; his son will be Śivaskandha 58; his son will be Yajnaśrí 59; his son will be Vijaya 60; his son will be Chandraśrí 61; his son will be Pulomárchish 62. These thirty Andhrabhritya kings will reign four hundred and fifty-six years 63. After these, various races will reign, as seven Ábhíras, ten Garddhabas, sixteen Śakas, eight Yavanas, fourteen Tusháras, thirteen Muńd́as, eleven Maunas, altogether seventy-nine princes 64, who will be sovereigns
of the earth for one thousand three hundred and ninety years; and then eleven Pauras will be kings for three hundred years 65. When they are destroyed, the Kailakila Yavanas will be kings; the chief of whom will be Vindhyaśakti; his son will be Puranjaya; his son will be Rámachandra; his son will be Adharma, from whom will be Varánga, Kritanandana, Śudhinandi, Nandiyaśas, Śiśuka, and Pravíra; these will rule for a hundred and six years 66. From them will proceed thirteen sons; then three Báhlíkas, and Pushpamitra, and Pat́umitra, and others, to the number of thirteen, will rule over Mekala 67. There will be nine kings in the seven Koalas, and there will be as many Naishadha princes 68.
In Magadhá a sovereign named Viśwasphat́ika will establish other tribes; he will extirpate the Kshatriya or martial race, and elevate fishermen, barbarians, and Brahmans, and other castes, to power 69. The nine Nágas will reign in Padmávati, Kántipuri, and Mathurá; and the Guptas of Magadhá along the Ganges to Prayága 70. A prince named
Devarakshita will reign, in a city on the sea shore, over the Kośalas, Od́ras, Puńd́ras, and Támraliptas 71. The Guhas will possess Kálinga, Máhihaka, and the mountains of Mahendra 72. The race of Mańidhanu will occupy the countries of the Nishádas, Naimishikas, and Kálatoyas 73. The people called Kanakas will possess the Amazon country, and that called Múshika 74. Men of the three tribes, but degraded, and Ábhíras and Śúdras, will occupy Śaurásht́ra, Avanti, Śúra, Arbuda, and Marubhúmi: and Śúdras, outcastes, and barbarians will be masters of the banks of the Indus, Dárvika, the Chandrabhágá, and Káshmir
That is a rather a mouthful, here is the list broken down:

Pradyota dynasty = 108 years and 5 kings
Average reign per king: 21.6 years

Śaiśunágas dynasty = 362 years and 10 kings
Average reign per king: 36.2 years

Nanda dynasty = 100 years = 9 kings
Average reign per king: 11.1 years

Mauraya dynasty = 137 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king: 13.7 years

Sunga dynasty = 112 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king 11.2 years

Kanwa dynasty = 45 years = 4 kings
Average reign per king: 11.25 years

Andhra dynasty = 156 years = 30 kings
Average reign per king: 5.2 years

Foreign kings = 1399 years = 79 kings
Average reign per king: 17.7 years

Paura dynasty = 300 years = 11 kings
Average reign per king: 27 years

Kailakila Yavanas dynasty = 106 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king: 10.6 years

The remaining kings seem to only reign in certain parts of India:

From them will proceed thirteen sons; then three Báhlíkas, and Pushpamitra, and Pat́umitra, and others, to the number of thirteen, will rule over Mekala 67. There will be nine kings in the seven Koalas, and there will be as many Naishadha princes 68.
In Magadhá a sovereign named Viśwasphat́ika will establish other tribes; he will extirpate the Kshatriya or martial race, and elevate fishermen, barbarians, and Brahmans, and other castes, to power 69. The nine Nágas will reign in Padmávati, Kántipuri, and Mathurá; and the Guptas of Magadhá along the Ganges to Prayága 70. A prince named
Devarakshita will reign, in a city on the sea shore, over the Kośalas, Od́ras, Puńd́ras, and Támraliptas 71. The Guhas will possess Kálinga, Máhihaka, and the mountains of Mahendra 72. The race of Mańidhanu will occupy the countries of the Nishádas, Naimishikas, and Kálatoyas 73. The people called Kanakas will possess the Amazon country, and that called Múshika 74. Men of the three tribes, but degraded, and Ábhíras and Śúdras, will occupy Śaurásht́ra, Avanti, Śúra, Arbuda, and Marubhúmi: and Śúdras, outcastes, and barbarians will be masters of the banks of the Indus, Dárvika, the Chandrabhágá, and Káshmir


Notice the Greeks are actually mentioned in the list as reigning in India, BUT not during the Mauraya dynasty! In fact only after 450 years have elapsed between the Mauraya and Andharas, does foreign invasion begin of India - before that no Greeks(Yavanas) and Sakas(Persians) are mentioned as ruling India. So when do we see the very first beginning of Greek presence in India? The foreign rule begins with:

7 Ábhíras, ten Garddhabas, sixteen Śakas, eight Yavanas, fourteen Tusháras, thirteen Muńd́as, eleven Maunas

At an average of 17.7 years per king
7 Abhiras = 123.9 years
10 Garddhbas = 170.7 years
16 Sakas = 282.2 years
Total before the start of Greek rule = 578.8 years

Therefore, the amount of time that has elapsed between Chandragupta Mauraya before the first recorded Greek presence in India is 578.8 years + 450 years = 1026 years

Therefore, it is impossible that Chandragupta Mauraya was Sandocrottus. The Greeks came 1026 years after him.

Last edited by Joshua A; December 5th, 2012 at 01:38 PM.
Joshua A is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 01:55 PM   #96
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,651

Just a note: The actual durations of reign per king and number of kings per dynasty is reasonable, the highest is 36 years per king and the lowest 5.2 years. The average based on the above is: 16.5 years

This is hardly a religious and mythical scale. Not a single king in this listing has a biblical life span of 1000+ years.

If the SC was true, then we would have a ridiculous and implausible reduction in reign of kings. Therefore the SC is impossible.

The genealogy recorded in the Puranas is also completely consistent with what we know about history. It is true for example that the Persians were ruling over India before the Greeks arrived, and this is proven by the fact that we find Indians throughout Persia even in 500BCE. It is also true, that the rulers of India after the Persians for a temporal period were the Greeks.

Last edited by Joshua A; December 5th, 2012 at 02:00 PM.
Joshua A is online now  
Old December 5th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #97

Bharata's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Forum
Posts: 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
I was reading the Vishnu Purana the section which mentions the dynasties of kings which rule India from the beginning of Pradyota:



Devabhúti, the last Śunga prince, being addicted to, immoral indulgences, his minister, the Kańwa named Vasudeva will murder him, and usurp the kingdom: his son will be Bhúmimitra; his son will be Náráyańa; his son will be Suśarman. These four Káńwas will be kings of the earth for forty-five years 38. Suśarman the Káńwa will be killed by a powerful servant named Śipraka, of the Ándhra tribe, who will become king, and found the Ándhrabhritya dynasty 39: he will be succeeded by his brother Krishńa 40; his son will be Śrí Śátakarńi 41; his son will be Púrnotsanga 42; his son will be Śátakarńi (2nd) 43; his son will be Lambodara 44; his son will be Ivílaka 45; his son will be Meghaswáti 46; his son will be Patumat 47; his son will be Arisht́akarman 48; his son will be Hála 49; his son will be Tálaka 50; his son will be Pravilasena 51; his son will be Sundara, named Śátakarńi 52; his son will be Chakora Śátakarńi 53; his son will be Śivaswáti 54; his son will be Gomatiputra 55; his son will be Pulimat 56; his son will be Śivaśrí Śátakarńi 57; his son will be Śivaskandha 58; his son will be Yajnaśrí 59; his son will be Vijaya 60; his son will be Chandraśrí 61; his son will be Pulomárchish 62. These thirty Andhrabhritya kings will reign four hundred and fifty-six years 63. After these, various races will reign, as seven Ábhíras, ten Garddhabas, sixteen Śakas, eight Yavanas, fourteen Tusháras, thirteen Muńd́as, eleven Maunas, altogether seventy-nine princes 64, who will be sovereigns
of the earth for one thousand three hundred and ninety years; and then eleven Pauras will be kings for three hundred years 65. When they are destroyed, the Kailakila Yavanas will be kings; the chief of whom will be Vindhyaśakti; his son will be Puranjaya; his son will be Rámachandra; his son will be Adharma, from whom will be Varánga, Kritanandana, Śudhinandi, Nandiyaśas, Śiśuka, and Pravíra; these will rule for a hundred and six years 66. From them will proceed thirteen sons; then three Báhlíkas, and Pushpamitra, and Pat́umitra, and others, to the number of thirteen, will rule over Mekala 67. There will be nine kings in the seven Koalas, and there will be as many Naishadha princes 68.
In Magadhá a sovereign named Viśwasphat́ika will establish other tribes; he will extirpate the Kshatriya or martial race, and elevate fishermen, barbarians, and Brahmans, and other castes, to power 69. The nine Nágas will reign in Padmávati, Kántipuri, and Mathurá; and the Guptas of Magadhá along the Ganges to Prayága 70. A prince named
Devarakshita will reign, in a city on the sea shore, over the Kośalas, Od́ras, Puńd́ras, and Támraliptas 71. The Guhas will possess Kálinga, Máhihaka, and the mountains of Mahendra 72. The race of Mańidhanu will occupy the countries of the Nishádas, Naimishikas, and Kálatoyas 73. The people called Kanakas will possess the Amazon country, and that called Múshika 74. Men of the three tribes, but degraded, and Ábhíras and Śúdras, will occupy Śaurásht́ra, Avanti, Śúra, Arbuda, and Marubhúmi: and Śúdras, outcastes, and barbarians will be masters of the banks of the Indus, Dárvika, the Chandrabhágá, and Káshmir[/indent]
That is a rather a mouthful, here is the list broken down:

Pradyota dynasty = 108 years and 5 kings
Average reign per king: 21.6 years

Śaiśunágas dynasty = 362 years and 10 kings
Average reign per king: 36.2 years

Nanda dynasty = 100 years = 9 kings
Average reign per king: 11.1 years

Mauraya dynasty = 137 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king: 13.7 years

Sunga dynasty = 112 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king 11.2 years

Kanwa dynasty = 45 years = 4 kings
Average reign per king: 11.25 years

Andhra dynasty = 156 years = 30 kings
Average reign per king: 5.2 years

Foreign kings = 1399 years = 79 kings
Average reign per king: 17.7 years

Paura dynasty = 300 years = 11 kings
Average reign per king: 27 years

Kailakila Yavanas dynasty = 106 years = 10 kings
Average reign per king: 10.6 years

The remaining kings seem to only reign in certain parts of India:

From them will proceed thirteen sons; then three Báhlíkas, and Pushpamitra, and Pat́umitra, and others, to the number of thirteen, will rule over Mekala 67. There will be nine kings in the seven Koalas, and there will be as many Naishadha princes 68.
In Magadhá a sovereign named Viśwasphat́ika will establish other tribes; he will extirpate the Kshatriya or martial race, and elevate fishermen, barbarians, and Brahmans, and other castes, to power 69. The nine Nágas will reign in Padmávati, Kántipuri, and Mathurá; and the Guptas of Magadhá along the Ganges to Prayága 70. A prince named
Devarakshita will reign, in a city on the sea shore, over the Kośalas, Od́ras, Puńd́ras, and Támraliptas 71. The Guhas will possess Kálinga, Máhihaka, and the mountains of Mahendra 72. The race of Mańidhanu will occupy the countries of the Nishádas, Naimishikas, and Kálatoyas 73. The people called Kanakas will possess the Amazon country, and that called Múshika 74. Men of the three tribes, but degraded, and Ábhíras and Śúdras, will occupy Śaurásht́ra, Avanti, Śúra, Arbuda, and Marubhúmi: and Śúdras, outcastes, and barbarians will be masters of the banks of the Indus, Dárvika, the Chandrabhágá, and Káshmir


Notice the Greeks are actually mentioned in the list as reigning in India, BUT not during the Mauraya dynasty! In fact only after 450 years have elapsed between the Mauraya and Andharas, does foreign invasion begin of India - before that no Greeks(Yavanas) and Sakas(Persians) are mentioned as ruling India. So when do we see the very first beginning of Greek presence in India? The foreign rule begins with:

7 Ábhíras, ten Garddhabas, sixteen Śakas, eight Yavanas, fourteen Tusháras, thirteen Muńd́as, eleven Maunas

At an average of 17.7 years per king
7 Abhiras = 123.9 years
10 Garddhbas = 170.7 years
16 Sakas = 282.2 years
Total before the start of Greek rule = 578.8 years

Therefore, the amount of time that has elapsed between Chandragupta Mauraya before the first recorded Greek presence in India is 578.8 years + 450 years = 1026 years

Therefore, it is impossible that Chandragupta Mauraya was Sandocrottus. The Greeks came 1026 years after him.
in the passage andhra is 456 and you calculated for 156
Bharata is offline  
Old December 5th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #98
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,651

Oops, sorry, I stand corrected! Yes 456 years, so that changes the 1026 years between Chandragupta Mauraya and the first Greek invasions of India to 1327 years.

I would imagine these first Greek invasions are actually not Alexander, but even before him.
Joshua A is online now  
Old December 6th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #99

Bharata's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Forum
Posts: 271

Greeks also put s at the ending of names [anyone can explain?]
Best exampe other than indian kings are the persian emperors darius,cambysses,cyrus so on
And making river sindhu indus


maybe i will put this question in new thread
Bharata is offline  
Old December 6th, 2012, 04:03 AM   #100

Bharata's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Forum
Posts: 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua A View Post
Just a note:

The genealogy recorded in the Puranas is also completely consistent with what we know about history. It is true for example that the Persians were ruling over India before the Greeks arrived, and this is proven by the fact that we find Indians throughout Persia even in 500BCE. It is also true, that the rulers of India after the Persians for a temporal period were the Greeks.

Wikipedia tells 2 of the persian kings name were kambujiya
sounds similar to kamboja in indian puranas
Bharata is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
ashoka, edict, kalsi, rock


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alexander vs. Ashoka Vir0n Ancient History 250 August 12th, 2013 02:13 AM
Obscure old rock and roll... Richard Stanbery Art and Cultural History 0 June 27th, 2009 03:52 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.