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Old February 11th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #111

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both, id say
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Old February 12th, 2011, 04:35 AM   #112

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Is Vietnam evil like North Korea, the former USSR, Cuba, and the PRC


Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmen View Post
...

And why are Communists evil?! Why?!
The person who started this thread was banned permanently quite some time ago. He was like the boy who carries a turd into a room full of adults and drops it on the floor when no one is looking then stands back to watch what happens because he thinks it's practical joke - he thinks it's funny when people take him seriously.

But there's no way to determine through the computer screen whether the poster has an actual mental defect or is only pretending for reasons of his own.

OK, everybody carry on if you want to.
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Old February 13th, 2011, 03:33 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by imperialmen View Post
I love this thing!!

And Vietnam is not evil. From a Westerner's eyes, the image may be obscured by impact from Hollywood and US war propaganda. Nobody in India, nobody in Indonesia, nobody in China, nobody in Qatar has a bad opinion about Vietnam. Instead, we perceive America(the Govt. not its ppl) as evil.... a bully with huge power who pushed around other small countries....

And why are Communists evil?! Why?!
Yes, Communists IS NOT EVIL!!!
But some countries follow socialism with communist party did the wrong way!

Eastern Europe & Xoviet fail in economy policy.
North Korea is going wrong by nepotism & becomes Chinese's puppet.

Now, Vietnam & Chinese keep going on socialism.

But Chinese uses socialism like a mask to hide the totalitarian of Beijing's expansionism.

Vietnam with the only one party: Communism is doing the right way.

Vietnam don't have the completely democracy with one party but they have a limited democracy. It's better than some countries have the fake democracy (with left&right hand game: A party & B party is just one) use human rights + one party problem + Communism EVIL to make **** on Vietnam.

Now, welcome to Vietnam, the war finished 36 years ago, 36 years to make people around the world forget Vietnam=War is not long enough. hjx!
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Old February 13th, 2011, 12:01 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by imperialmen View Post
Yes, the American people choose their Presidents (fair and square), but do they get a choice in choosing different policies? Do they get a chance to choose how their country steers through diplomacy, wars, economy? NO!

What they got to choose was- Obama and Hillary Clinton. Anything major change in the US? Did the war stop in the Middle East? Obama failed to stop their operations in the M.E, any guarantee Hillary would have stopped?
Hi imperialmen, I am an Australian therefore I cannot or should not answer on behalf of the Americans. However, being there in the USA a number of times, I've found that the "policies" of a country is something not simple to pick and change easily as a piece of goods. "Policies" are always evolving and moving forward. Realistically none of any American can actually change the policy as his wish but the policies changed from many internal and external factors. Of course, the American polices are ultimately gearing toward the benefits of America. A single citizen can't change the policy but large group of people can influence policies changed.

If you watch closely, Bush has moved quickly into Middle East after 9/11 with American consensus. Bush has then moved out of the office also equally quick when Middle East turned sour. The economic down turn, the deficit, the bad dragging in the Middle East have caused a number of bills come out and being implemented not because the politicians want that and go ahead with that but because the common consensus created causes and effects to move to that direction. Obama cannot stop the war in the Middle East immediately because this war has moved to the state where any big and immediate withdraw could cause big problems to the Afghans. I am lucky to view and read a number of programs about the real impact if Australian and American forces withdraw from Afghanistan immediately to appreciate the truth behind this.

In Vietnam, if I understand correctly, the politburo gives no access to any citizen and nobody outside the politburo can have any opportunity to raise a voice or influence their decisions. Worse, anyone raise a voice, he can be in deep trouble. Currently, the biggest influence to Vietnamese government is China. This is not for the interests of the Vietnamese people but for the people on the top seats of the food chain. This causes a series of human rights and religious violations in Vietnam.

I've tried to elaborate the above a little in attempting to illustrate the very distinct difference between US government and Vietnam government which shows one government may have left no window for policy change but still being influenced by internal and external factors, another government not only leave no window for policy change but also ban and punish whoever attempts to influence. If we say: because US government is "evil", therefore we should not criticise Vietnam government, to me, is a fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmen View Post
What I say is democracy is just like an illusion.... its an image projected to the public... no real power in their hands.... Only the mighty and aristocrats get to the top level (Obama too worked in the Senate before running for the Presidential seat)... The common cant decide the country's next move.
As I have tried to point out only one little aspect of "influencing" above. The American people can't just simply "change the policies" because it is not a book to grab and write stuffs to it but they can change their president and create causes and effects to further change the "policies" through the senates and the president.

If you ever remember, the Vietnam war ended because of the waves of anti-war protests in America which have put the American under enormous pressure. The American withdrawals from Vietnam were directly and indirectly caused by the "influences" I have described above. You would know that realistically, back in 60' and 70' of the last century, the US army was far more powerful and sophisticated comparing to the North Vietnam army (and the aided Chinese and Russian behind North Vietnam army). The US army could have crushed the North Vietnam army but they didn't do that. In one of the interviews with the general Vo Nguyen Giap much later on in the 90', he admitted that if the American pressed a bit more, a bit longer, the war would have ended there and the North Vietnamese government did prepare for a white flag. So why the American pulled off? The main cause and effect was the "influences". This is to counter the opinion that "the common can't decide the country's next move".

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Originally Posted by imperialmen View Post
In Vietnam war, it's people held hands, worked together and repulsed a higly advanced and imperial power... US used Napalm to massacre Vietnamese in the war.... Did the Vietnamese massacre innocent US citizens?
All due respect, this part is actually only half of the story and strongly influenced by propaganda. Kim Phuc, the naked young girl in the picture that shocked the world for a while and her picture was used extensively by the North Vietnamese to create huge propaganda for so many years. In war time, both sides try to inflict worst things to the opponents but if an image is captured, it will be used as a propaganda tool to take advantage. To me, this is also an illusion. I am not saying dropping any kind of bomb is not bad but you need to make the story straight by saying "US used Napalm to massacre Vietnamese in the war" because it is not accurate. The better statement would be "US used Napalm to cut off the trails of its opponent in the war and it caused a lot of collateral damages". If one says "the US used Napalm to massacre Vietnamese", why wouldn't the American drop them in the cities to make it quick smart but they dropped them along the Ho Chi Minh trail?

I am not trying to defend the American by any mean. I am only trying to get the facts straight here because people are mostly stuffed up by media and propaganda without even realise that.

To answer your question "Did the Vietnamese massacre innocent US citizens?" the answer is: NO. But the Vietnamese massacre themselves in the Vietnam war, I am talking about the armies killed their own citizen in the war time and after the war. Theoretically, if Vietnamese have power they would massacre innocent US citizen because they have done that with Cambodian people in the Vietnam-Cambodia war 1975 - 1991.

After the American Civil war (18611865), there was no cleansing, there was no "education camp", there was no boatloads of people trying to escape the southern states of America, there was no classifying and seizing citizen's properties... The North side of America still preserve and respect the South. They still maintain the cemeteries, maintain the images and culture of the South.

After the Vietnam war (1954-1975), there were so many layers of cleansing. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers and officers from the South Vietnamese government were gathered and stayed for years in "education camps", thousands of them died and their families wouldn't have a clue where they were buried. The rest of them were released after years in camp and came home half disabled. Millions of families were accused of being "bourgeois". They were seized off their properties, sent off to "new economic zones". Millions of them were classified as "related to old bad regime" and with CV like that, they became 2nd grade citizens. Millions attempted to escaped from their own homeland on leaky boatloads. After more than 3 decades, the conflicts and the differences are still very real and apparent. Why? If the North Vietnamese government did not inflict such painful policies and created such a dark era, why would Vietnamese are still so divisive until now?

Allow me to repeat one more time: the US government is evil with other countries, VN government is evil with its own people. To me, gaining independence is a wonderful thing but turn the country into the real chaos with so many inhuman policies, create deep and unhealable wounds among the people and don't do much to fix that is evil. What is the point of removing one hell (foreign occupation) and creating another hell (inflict huge and prolonged pains to their own people after independence)?
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Old February 13th, 2011, 12:29 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_phamcong View Post
Yes, Communists IS NOT EVIL!!!
But some countries follow socialism with communist party did the wrong way!

Eastern Europe & Xoviet fail in economy policy.
North Korea is going wrong by nepotism & becomes Chinese's puppet.

Now, Vietnam & Chinese keep going on socialism.

But Chinese uses socialism like a mask to hide the totalitarian of Beijing's expansionism.

Vietnam with the only one party: Communism is doing the right way.

Vietnam don't have the completely democracy with one party but they have a limited democracy. It's better than some countries have the fake democracy (with left&right hand game: A party & B party is just one) use human rights + one party problem + Communism EVIL to make **** on Vietnam.

Now, welcome to Vietnam, the war finished 36 years ago, 36 years to make people around the world forget Vietnam=War is not long enough. hjx!
Hi mr_phamcong,

Years ago I did believe what other people (like you) said these things. I didn't have any mean to compare and verify and I applauded for Vietnam gaining independence. Sadly, after 1975, since the fall of Saigon, millions of Vietnamese ran off for their lives which caused me think twice, think three times and think more often.

Nowdays, after the collapse of the USSR and the East Europe bloc, there are so many released documents from the old communist countries among US's "confidentials", I have a chance to read and compare. I also have a chance to travel to Vietnam to talk to people and gain inside stories. What can I say? You are one of those who try hard to promote Vietnamese government to gain sympathy from us, the same way your older generation stirred up the images of "Kim Phuc" and "My Lai" which caused huge demonstrations in New York, Paris, London, Sydney..... More than 40 years went pass, we look back and learn that, what is the point of removing one hell, which cost millions of lives to create another hell?

I visited Vietnam a number of times and I have traveled from South to North, from HCMC all the way to Hanoi, and further up to Sapa. I've randomly picked a few guys (on the street) along the way to come with me to help me learning about Vietnam. "Communism" is not doing the right way. "Communism" is only a belief, not a body, not an action, not a plan. You can sell your belief to others who easily accept propaganda and "touched" by some photographs but you cannot sell that to me because I seek to verify and to obtain the truth.

Let me tell you what. A government which has an open cheque for "an ninh quoc gia" (national security) with unlimited under covers, unlimited informers to spy on their own people (like Ceaușescu government and similar) is BAD and EVIL to me.

Where I come from, there is no "fake democracy" with "party A and party B is just one". You don't insult our intelligence with your ridiculous propaganda tones because it won't work. You should also learn to understand our cultures before spreading such childish information. You might be successful with your own people by saying so with a baton or a loaded gun on your hand but no, it won't work here.

On the final note. I love Vietnamese people. They are so friendly, eager to learn and share and extremely emotional. They live and thrive on with hope and simple goals but Vietnamese government and its regime? Hell NO. They are a bunch of people with permanent masks.
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Old February 13th, 2011, 09:20 PM   #116
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^ Above poster:
-But those propagandas have their good side: The communist gov did really promote the image of an "eternally always peace-loving nation. That means, Viet youths nowadays think of our country as a bullied nation, who did nothing great in the past, and always be bullied by the big boys: China, France, USA...Please dont get me wrong, they really teach us in school that our nation is a hardcore peace-loving one who never harm anyone. The average Vietnamese attitude toward our neighbours (nations), and towards other foreigners therefore is really good, as you can see.
The pros: as you said above, because patriotism is "suppressed" that way.
The cons: The average Vietnamese really think we cant do nothing great, nothing big. After all, just Vietnamese suffers from that.
You probably dont know, but 40 years ago if a girl seen going with G.I, people see her as a bitch. Now they think that is kool! Woooohoooo!!!
I thought the same way(they- foreigners are kool!!!), until some years ago when I learned the concept of "Gaijin".
Which leads to this:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bui_Doi"]Bui Doi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Now those Eurasians are seen as really kool!
Another example:
-one of my friend did tell me this:"Those westeners are really kool and know-it-all, they know well about Vietnam than most Vietnamese".
I thought it is a shame but I was kool and said nothing. And it is normal here these days. But one word popped out of my mind: "Hobbits!" (are we?) You as a "gaijin"(I dont mean that, just for fun) must like that, but as a Vietnamese I hate that.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 10:57 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1conbo View Post
^ Above poster:
-But those propagandas have their good side: The communist gov did really promote the image of an "eternally always peace-loving nation. That means, Viet youths nowadays think of our country as a bullied nation, who did nothing great in the past, and always be bullied by the big boys: China, France, USA...Please dont get me wrong, they really teach us in school that our nation is a hardcore peace-loving one who never harm anyone. The average Vietnamese attitude toward our neighbours (nations), and towards other foreigners therefore is really good, as you can see.
The pros: as you said above, because patriotism is "suppressed" that way.
The cons: The average Vietnamese really think we cant do nothing great, nothing big. After all, just Vietnamese suffers from that.
You probably dont know, but 40 years ago if a girl seen going with G.I, people see her as a bitch. Now they think that is kool! Woooohoooo!!!
I thought the same way(they- foreigners are kool!!!), until some years ago when I learned the concept of "Gaijin".
Which leads to this:
Bui Doi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now those Eurasians are seen as really kool!
Another example:
-one of my friend did tell me this:"Those westeners are really kool and know-it-all, they know well about Vietnam than most Vietnamese".
I thought it is a shame but I was kool and said nothing. And it is normal here these days. But one word popped out of my mind: "Hobbits!" (are we?) You as a "gaijin"(I dont mean that, just for fun) must like that, but as a Vietnamese I hate that.
Hi 1conbo,

I am not sure if I am a westerner or not because most of the Australian nowdays do not believe they are a part of Europe anymore but this little detail is not significant. What I want to say is that "we" or rather I, do not know it all (I hate to say things on behalf of a group of people and I found a lot of Vietnamese really love to do so). I believe, you and me, we are mostly the same except I am a lot more objective than you (or most Vietnamese). This is what I have found when I visited Vietnam a few times in the past.

I look at things objectively and you Vietnamese guys look at things perceptively. Perhaps you guys have been through such a long and painful history. Perhaps it's the culture. This is something I still try to learn. Nevertheless, you guys seem to personalise most of the objects. You guys even idolise or monsterise a figure as easily. I am not saying this is necessarily good or bad but there are reasons for us to have the words "political science" and "social science".

I did not talk about patriotism specifically. I talked about the overall suppression or at least, political suppression. In Vietnam, at most of the Internet Cafe, pornography seems to be "free" even for the little kids but anything related to politics is forbidden, is that right? In Vietnam, one can criticise the social dilemmas but you must not criticise or even talk about the Party's mistakes, am I right? In Vietnam, one can generalise that "corruption is everywhere in Vietnam" but if pointing a finger directly to any public servant, you would be in trouble, right? In the mean time, the communist party tries really hard to promote itself and this party would take every single credit for social advancement in Vietnam and this party would refuse to accept any mistake, right? I still remember vaguely the word "on Dang" (meaning "grateful to the Party") .

The selected suppression caused a lot of false sense of "freedom". I am currently trying to compile a list of "free" and "not free" items in Vietnam. Can you help me?

PS: Yes, I am "Gaijin" for sure but you are not "hobbits". Don't put yourself anywhere else but where you are.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 09:55 AM   #118

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Vietnam...beautiful country, friendly, polite, tolerant and considerate people...hardworking and their standard of living will continue to improve...
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 10:10 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
The person who started this thread was banned permanently quite some time ago. He was like the boy who carries a turd into a room full of adults and drops it on the floor when no one is looking then stands back to watch what happens because he thinks it's practical joke - he thinks it's funny when people take him seriously.

But there's no way to determine through the computer screen whether the poster has an actual mental defect or is only pretending for reasons of his own.

OK, everybody carry on if you want to.

LMFAO. What an epic analogy.
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