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Old November 23rd, 2010, 12:12 PM   #21

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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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To call it meaningless is to speak incorrectly.
I think you are conflating ethnicity with nationalism.

Nationalism as we know it is a modern invention.My opinion remains unchanged.


We may need to agree to differ.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 12:13 PM   #22
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
I think you are conflating ethnicity with nationalism.

Nationalism as we know it is a modern invention.My opinion remains unchanged.


We may need to agree to differ.
Unless you are saying American (from black to white to Asian to Arabic to native to Hispanic) is an ethnicity, then no, I am not.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #23

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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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Originally Posted by scholar View Post
Unless you are saying American (from black to white to Asian to Arabic to native to Hispanic) is an ethnicity, then no, I am not.
Scholar, your signature represents nationalism in the ancient world, doesn't it?

Can you tell us about it?
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Old November 25th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #24
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


Nationalism means a lot of things to a lot of different nations in the ancient world. Since this is the Asian history section, let's start with China. Most of the Chinese were particularly Xenophobic after the Wuhu uprisings because of it going against their concept of tianxia. However a notable exception takes place during the Tang in which trade and cultural exchange flourished. Much of the Sassanid royal court fled to the Tang dynasty, where they had established cordial relations and trade. The remaining royalty of the imperial family were given princely titles and were given command of some military forces. There were two attempts to re-establish the Sassanid Empire by the Tang, but they met with little success. Eventually, with the death of the last "king" of Persia he told his retainers and his family to essentially forget about Persia, for they were now Chinese. During the Tang dynasty color meant little. What it meant to be Han Chinese had very little to do with actually being ethnically Han, but following the customs of the empire. What it means to be someone in the Tang was to be a good Confucian. Family is very important, loyalty to the emperor and state is paramount, and strength in character is a must. Islam seeped into the Tang and it flourished, but was almost always considered second tier to Confucianism. Islam, however, gained prominence during the the Yuan Dynasty, but the Yuans mistreated the muslims and they went into revolt with the Han chinese. Islam was then endeared to the chinese people and was accepted on some level where other religions and customs weren't. The Qing attempted to destroy this, Mao attempted to eradicate this along with everything else, and now Islam is obscure in China despite the 10 million people there.

I guess what it means to be Chinese has changed over time with varying importance placed on ethnicity, and the importance of Confucian values and tianxia. Buddhism and Islam gained some levels of acceptance, and some levels of rejection. There's a lot more to tell here, it would literally take thousands of words to describe nationalism to every nation and every culture in asia, and thousands more for the entire ancient world.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:25 PM   #25

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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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Unless you are saying American (from black to white to Asian to Arabic to native to Hispanic) is an ethnicity, then no, I am not.

No, I'm not,in fact the opposite. Many if not all countries contain many ethnicities.

A country is a political entity with no objective reality. The area of a country is arbitrarily defined by drawing an imaginary line on a map.That area,even then the name of a country is subject to periodic change.

"America"; Do you mean the US or North America? I'll assume the US. Compare a political map of the US today with one of 1776. Today,places including California,Texas, Alaska, Hawaii and their inhabitants are
Americans. A meaningful term only in a political sense and completely artificial.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #26
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


No, not at all. You're simply too focused on boarders instead of the cultural unity of those within them. If it is completely arbitrary then there is no distinguishable difference between Canada and the United States except it's boarders. No difference between the United States and Mexico except it's boarders. It's cultures, people, economies, and lifestyles are all exactly the same, correct? That is what you are implying. There is only one thing in nationalism and that's an artificial creation. Therefore there is nothing else discernible from each other?
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Old November 28th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #27

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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


As for myself, at my old age, I am more interested in the Anthropological/Sociological/Genealogical aspects of history than I am of the flag-waving/sword-swishing/money-bagging versions.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #28
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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now Islam is obscure in China .

How do you figure Islam is obscure in China now?
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:56 PM   #29
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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How do you figure Islam is obscure in China now?
The cultural revolution and mass migrations of Han Chinese to dilute the Muslim populations in Gansu and yunnan have left it sidelined mostly in China when before it's followers were among the highest authorities in all of China. There are 10 million Muslims, but they are no where near the level of respect and prominence that they had during the Ming.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 09:40 PM   #30
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Re: Too much nationalism in this board


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The cultural revolution and mass migrations of Han Chinese to dilute the Muslim populations in Gansu and yunnan have left it sidelined mostly in China when before it's followers were among the highest authorities in all of China. There are 10 million Muslims, but they are no where near the level of respect and prominence that they had during the Ming.

Not being at the their historical highpoint does not exactly mean obscurity it seems to me. Reliable figures on religious matters in China are hard to come by, but estimates vary greatly from your 10 million to upwards of 100 million. The truth is probably somewhere in between. In any case, in any large city in China - particularly as you move Westward, a sizeable Muslim population can be found, with their own schools and communities and often a 'Muslim Quarter' where they and their relevant services are concentrated. And then there is of course Xinjiang. My point is just that "obscure" is overstating it in my opinion.
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