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Old November 16th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #31

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Re: China and Western Supremacy


Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptingman View Post
Look


its no big deal to have 15% of the world's economy when you have 15% of the world population.

That makes you , statistically, One for One.

If you have twice as many people, working, as the next nation, then you SHOULD have twice the economy, in order to be EVEN with them.

What is comes down to is this... China, at one time, had all the tools necessary to grown their economy dramatically... they had the sternpost rudder, the compass, and gunpowder... they could have expanded their hegemony, as did later powers... but they chose not to. After the warring states period... China was pretty much DONE with any form of expansion.

Yes they have a big chunk of the world.
Yes they have a big chunk of the people.

But, until recently, China has not been an economic FORCE because they were insular.


I am not saying China was not a big magilla back in the day... I am saying that their position was not out of proportion to their population and internal assets.

Same goes for India.

.
If you had read more carefully, you'd know:

1. China from 500 BCE to 1200 BCE had 15-20% of the world's economy and 15-20% of the world's population.

2. Rome, from 0CE to 450 CE had 11-12 % of the world's population and 7-8% of the world's economy.

Therefore, while China was a richer civilization than Rome.

3. Between 1000 BCE and 1200 CE, India had 25-30% of the world's economy and 15-20% of the world's population. That makes them, on average, 3-4 times richer than the average Roman citizen/population.

4. Between 1200 CE and 1800 CE, China made up 15-20% of the world's population and 25-30% of the world's GDP. This makes them literally twice as rich on average than any European kingdom/Empire of 1200s-1800s,given that no European empire/kingdom had same parity between population and GDP.

That makes China literally the richest place in the world between 1200 and 1800 CE.

Nobody is doubting the fact that once Industrial revolution took off in the 1800s, Europe and America became filthy rich. but before that, Europe or west asia were never the benchmark for economy.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:16 AM   #32

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Re: China and Western Supremacy


You made a claim that most non-Chinese do not recognize Chinese ownership over Tibet.

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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Gauda View Post
Most people outside of China see Chinese claim over Tibet as dubious at best and therefore, China fought a war of expansionism, not a war of protectionism.
I am still waiting for you to name just five countries that do not recognize such.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #33
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


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A process that every other developing countries went through is somehow special in China... how? every issue you described was true when I was younger in Taiwan, so is Taiwan now ****ed? every issue was pretty much true over the 50s-70s for Japan / Hong Kong / South Korea and god knows how many other developing country?

You DO realize that stages like that happened in the USA and England as well RIGHT? maybe these people / work / pictures are familiar to you?

Click the image to open in full size.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urney_head.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Carol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Twist

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

how is china today suppose to be different? is China suppose to be held at a higher standard that it's suppose to jump right through the developing stage without any of the negative consequences that was pretty much shared by EVERYONE while they were in a similar stage?
The rise of the United States in the 19th century and 20th century had big consequences for the western hemisphere. Germany's rise had big consequences for Europe. Japan's for East Asia, Russia's for both Europe and Asia. Whenever a new power emerges, things get hairy. In this way, China is no different from any other power.
As for industrialization, Taiwan didn't really have much effect on anything outside of Taiwan. China however is big. Big countries matter and have repercussions for others. For instance. In its need for water, China has dammed the Mekong River. The Mekong runs through Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Whatever China does to it upstream has big consequences for those countries that need that river. The Brahmaputra river flows from China into India and Bangladesh. China is damming that up too. This can have a big impact on those neighboring countries. Also China's rivers are famous for how polluted they are. Whatever they do to the rivers effects their neighbors.

China's desertifcation affects Korea a great deal. The toxic sands from the North East blow down the peninsula every year covering this country with polluted dust.
China's neighbors are quite worried about their own territories. China has tried to claim North Korea as theirs. They have declared Ghengis Khan as Chinese and Mongolians are worried about their independence. We've seen the Japan-China spat. China occupies many islands off of Vietnam's coast which Vietnam claims. China claims the whole South China Sea and has fought over the Spratyl Islands in the past. The countries of Central Asia are worried too about Chinese expansion.

What about the US? In its quest for resources the USA, well, I hardly need to state what the US has done in the Middle East in the name of resources. And its thousands of miles away. America's rise made Latin America its playground. Its business interests were often followed by Marines. When Russia is strong it makes Central Asia and Eastern Europe its own. So, you can see how the rise of China is different from your average country.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 09:38 PM   #34
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


I'm a Hong Kong Chinese (or alot of ppl say still a HK British), I am not proud of China and what it is doing these days.
I hate Ghengis Khan and will do anything to deny he is a Chinese, He is the one that destroyed one of the best Kingdom ever seen in it's time, if not the world.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 10:06 PM   #35
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


If you mean the Song Dynasty, I would agree. It was a very inventive time.
I don't think anyone needs to be proud of what their government does. How many Americans are proud of the things the US has done in its history or what it does today? Are there any governments in the world that we can be proud of? Maybe Swedens?
The average chinese person isn't responsible for what their government does. How could they be?
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Old November 24th, 2010, 05:01 PM   #36
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


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Originally Posted by Dr Realism View Post
The rise of the United States in the 19th century and 20th century had big consequences for the western hemisphere. Germany's rise had big consequences for Europe. Japan's for East Asia, Russia's for both Europe and Asia. Whenever a new power emerges, things get hairy. In this way, China is no different from any other power.
As for industrialization, Taiwan didn't really have much effect on anything outside of Taiwan. China however is big. Big countries matter and have repercussions for others. For instance. In its need for water, China has dammed the Mekong River. The Mekong runs through Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Whatever China does to it upstream has big consequences for those countries that need that river. The Brahmaputra river flows from China into India and Bangladesh. China is damming that up too. This can have a big impact on those neighboring countries. Also China's rivers are famous for how polluted they are. Whatever they do to the rivers effects their neighbors.

China's desertifcation affects Korea a great deal. The toxic sands from the North East blow down the peninsula every year covering this country with polluted dust.
China's neighbors are quite worried about their own territories. China has tried to claim North Korea as theirs. They have declared Ghengis Khan as Chinese and Mongolians are worried about their independence. We've seen the Japan-China spat. China occupies many islands off of Vietnam's coast which Vietnam claims. China claims the whole South China Sea and has fought over the Spratyl Islands in the past. The countries of Central Asia are worried too about Chinese expansion.

What about the US? In its quest for resources the USA, well, I hardly need to state what the US has done in the Middle East in the name of resources. And its thousands of miles away. America's rise made Latin America its playground. Its business interests were often followed by Marines. When Russia is strong it makes Central Asia and Eastern Europe its own. So, you can see how the rise of China is different from your average country.

Yes, but that is a totally different issue, I was replying to the suggestion that China's current issues in terms of relative poverty / lack luster quality standards / human rights issues etc is somehow a result of inferior cultural complex instead of the normal situation of a developing country. Not in terms of it's effect on the world.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #37
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


The gambling, fighting, drinking, and whoring has always been going on in China (and everywhere else) and so I don't know that it is accurate to attribute that to a surplus of male children. If anything, China may find out sooner than later that it has taken care of its population 'problem' only too well.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #38
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


Also, it is not exactly correct to paint ancient China as isolated. The Silk Road was the most active and lucrative trade route in the world for centuries, and for a long time China was very active in maritime trade far and wide.


As for the future, I don't think there is a 'rightful place' for any nation but what its people make for it.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:47 PM   #39
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


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How many Americans are proud of the things the US has done in its history or what it does today? ?

A great many, and many of those same Americans are opposed to other things the US has done and is doing. Not an unusual stance among nations I'd think.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #40
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Re: China and Western Supremacy


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Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
You made a claim that most non-Chinese do not recognize Chinese ownership over Tibet.

I am still waiting for you to name just five countries that do not recognize such.


Maybe he meant individuals, rather than nations formally making such recognition for practical political ends rather than on principle.
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