leakbrewergator

A while back in one of the Samurai vs. threads (I think it was Roman Legion. Not sure, though.) The topic of the Mongol Invasions of Japan popped up. I enjoyed discussing the subject for a few pages, but nothing more was ever really said about it.

Now that we have some new members who seem to be interested in Japanese history, I thought it would be a good idea to try to spark up a discussion. There's been a lot of debate lately in scholarly circles about the accuracy of the traditional story of the invasions. I think we all know how it goes, the Mongols assembled the greatest fleet known to man and made the crossing from Korea to Japan. Just as they were about to overrun a hapless and unorganized Japanese army, their ships were struck by a storm and many returned home. Of course, the Mongols attempted a second invasion with an even greater amount of ships and they were met with an even greater storm. The now infamous kamikaze.

So, what are your thoughts? Have you heard the recent scholarship that suggest the above story is a bunch of bull? What do you think the invasions' significance, if any, was? Any suggested reading for anyone interested further in the subject?

I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to see if we can get a good discussion going before I share them.

Clemmie

I know nothing about Asian history of any kind, but it does seem odd that two storms would hinder the Mongols success, unless some kind of bad weather was usual at certain times of the year and the Mongols were unaware of that fact (doesn't seem likely though).

It sounds like folklore; see how the gods (or whatever) protected us from the invaders by sending the bad weather.

Thessalonian

it is so much like the Persian navy being completely destroyed by bad weather, and thus the Persians failed to conquer Greece (in one occasion).
do not underestimate weather!

Thessalonian

The Pacific is not always a pacific ocean you know. It can be very nasty!

leakbrewergator

That is precisely one of the arguments against the traditional account. Also, the story of the typhoon(s) basically helps both sides. The Japanese clergy could use it, like you said, to say "see how the gods protected us?". While at the same time, the Mongols could say that they were only defeated by a freak act of nature. Thus, saving them from having to explain embarrassing defeat on the battlefield.

pablo668

Well, what I recall from what I've read, which isn't a lot (seems hard to find extensive accounts) in the first invasion the Japanese were caught with their pants down somewhat and the Mongol did make good inroads before the storm stuffed everything up.
The second invasion, the Japanese were more prepared and managed to either repel landings or keep them bottled up. The a storm came again.

There are still remains of walls and fortifications in Fukuoka/Hakata. I never quite managed to get to then to have a look see though, much to my regret.

okamido

I wish I could remember where I read this, possibly in an article on marine archaeology and the sunken fleet. However, it went along the lines that the fleet was so hastenly assembled, that the majority of the vessels used were actually designed for rivers and not the open sea, so they were completely unworthy of the task required of them. There was also a theory that stated that the "properly" built, open sea vessels , may actually have been purposely sabatoged by the Koreans who built them.

I will attempt to locate where I read this.

EDIT: It was a National Geographic special, and here is the book that was written by a marine archaeologist that worked with the Japanese team researching the sunken fleet. Khubilai Khan's Lost Fleet: In Search of a Legendary Armada by James Delgado.

daftone

Also the spanish armada

daftone

Could have been. The mongols knew nothing about ship building and they treated the koreans as cannon fodder soldiers.

leakbrewergator

I vaguely remember seeing that special a few years back. Do you recall how many ships (or parts of ships) they were able to locate?

If anyone's interested in reading more about the argument against the traditional view, I have attached a pdf of Thomas Conlan's essay, In Little Need of Divine Intervention. He eventually made this into a book not too long ago. It's a really good, quick (the essay version at least) read.

Edit: The attachment was too large, but I believe you can find the pdf on the wiki page for the Mongol Invasions here.