Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Asian History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Asian History Asian History Forum - China, Japan, Korea, India, Australia, New Zealand, and the Asia-Pacific Region


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 8th, 2011, 08:32 AM   #51

pablo668's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Perth, Western Australia. or....hickville.
Posts: 1,980

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
I thought the shrine is like the Arlington Semitary, an honor for the fallen soldiers. Maybe I was wrong. But either way, parts of the shrine clearly is dedicated to the memory of war criminals.

Here is what I found on the shrine's official site:About Yasukuni Shrine│Yasukuni Shrine


I can not picture Germans considering Nazis war criminals as someone who dedicated their precious lives for their country and deciding to commemorate and honor them.

As for whether the war criminals were treated as national heroes, please see the following (also came from the shrine's official site):

Hey Mandate,

I'm not saying that your previous post was totally wrong, it's just that as far as I know the shrine itself is for more than just soldiers from WWII.

If you were to say, the remains of WWII war criminals being interred there is wrong, I'd pretty much agree with you. It's just not all bout them is all.

And like I said, I'd never experienced the war criminals being touted as heroes.
pablo668 is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 8th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #52

Mandate of Heaven's Avatar
Ate too much
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Not sure what it is
Posts: 6,114

Quote:
Although I have some Japanese friends, I do not know many Japanese. If what you said is right, then I really have no probelm with Japanese people but with the government that seems to be implictly promoting jingoism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
Most governments promote patriotism in one form or another.
Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Do you equate jingoism with patritism?
Mandate of Heaven is offline  
Old January 8th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #53

Mandate of Heaven's Avatar
Ate too much
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Not sure what it is
Posts: 6,114

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo668 View Post
Hey Mandate,

I'm not saying that your previous post was totally wrong, it's just that as far as I know the shrine itself is for more than just soldiers from WWII.

If you were to say, the remains of WWII war criminals being interred there is wrong, I'd pretty much agree with you. It's just not all bout them is all.

And like I said, I'd never experienced the war criminals being touted as heroes.
Yes, I think having worst known war criminals in THE national shrine and worshipped as venerated divinities is very wrong. Tojo to Japan was analogous to Hitler in Germany. He's in there. The person most responsible for the massacre at Nanking, Iwane Matsui, was in there. All in all, there are 14 class-A war criminals venerated in the shrine. Any of those rivals the worst Nazis could offer. There are also about 1,000 class-C war criminals now in the shrine. Of the 2.46 millions venerated in the shrine, 2.10 millions are from WWII. So it's quite substantial.
Mandate of Heaven is offline  
Old January 8th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #54

Jake10's Avatar
Guardian Knight
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 10,803
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
Jake, I am not so sure Japanese like to be reminded of what happened. Japanese revised the school textbooks several times. Among the changes were changing the word "invasion" to "entering". This was done inspite of some very prominent protest from many countries it invaded.

Japanese also placed some of the worst war criminals in Yasukuni Shrine and treated them as national heroes. Moreover, its prime ministers public and deliberately paid homage to the shrine in spite of its well-known symbolism. Can you imagine Germans placing Nazi war criminals in the national shrine and treated them as national heroes? Maybe I am a bit extreme and swayed perhaps by emotion, but I do think Japanese actions leave something to be desired.
Well, looking at the posts from the other people, I just want to add more to the point about these concepts applying to you and I as well. In my case, the memorial in Washington D.C. for the Vietnam fallen soldiers may also remind people about the controversial involvement of the US in that war, the crimes committed there, and the treatment the veterans received when they returned home. Some of the names on the memorial may be of criminals, but a visit to it is not a support of this nor the other controversies. It's a way of mourning people who fought for their country. Many of them didn't agree with what was happening there, but they were not in a position to oppose it. Certainly the insults and bullying they encountered when they went back to America was inappropriate, causing some of them to still be there to this very day. As Li Bai wrote, "No one ever really laves the battle field." War is hell, and we tend to forget that, wanting to fight when problems arise, but we need to avert war, and one of the first steps towards that is tolerance.

For Chinese, we can also look at the tribute Chairman Mao and his Red Guards are still given, even by people who know exactly what they did. It's not just people on the Mainland, some in Hong Kong pay them tribute, partly because of their opposition to Chiang Kai Shek. But, none are supporting the crimes. Perhaps you can explain this best.

In any event, that's what the visits to the Yasukuni shrine represent. It's not a support of the crimes nor criminals. As for the rewriting of the books, I think we should look at Pablo's comment about past generations having gone through hardships and suffering. Afterwards, the humiliation that followed was so difficult to deal with because they were always portrayed as the bad side, that they just didn't want their younger generations to go through the same things. This type of shielding may not be the best way to deal with history, but it involves the other countries involved in the war, not just Japan. When we consider the hate that still exists, we need to ease that for younger generations. We're now in a world where Chinese, American, Japanese, Korean, German, French and all nations have to work side by side more and more. The last thing we need is Japanese people being treated like Vietnam veterans returning to America.

In time, Japan will acknowledge what happened, but they need support from everyone else. Perhaps something to be learned from this is that peace involves a great deal more than ending wars.
Jake10 is offline  
Old January 8th, 2011, 04:34 PM   #55

Naomasa298's Avatar
Bog of the Year
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 20,900

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Do you equate jingoism with patritism?
It's a very fine line. For example, post 9-11 USA was jingoistic. The attitude of China towards the Nobel Prize could be seen as jingoism. So yes, to a degree, I do equate the two because one can easily become another - and what one person calls patriotism can be what another person calls jingoism.

I should, however, admit that I am not unbiased. I am a Japanophile and I speak Japanese. On the other hand, my country of oigin (Thailand) was also invaded and occupied by Japan during WW2, although we did not suffer particularly under their rule. And being good Thais, we simply allied with them when they came. We also declared war on the US, we just didn't bother to tell them or actually do anything with it...

I have relatives who are ethnic Chinese, btw.
Naomasa298 is online now  
Old January 8th, 2011, 04:44 PM   #56

Naomasa298's Avatar
Bog of the Year
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 20,900

Jake10, very well written, thumbs up from me.
Naomasa298 is online now  
Old December 12th, 2012, 02:13 AM   #57
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,318

I hope you guys don't mind I revive this thread. There is something I want to ask. How many total victims massacre by the Japanese according to Japanese historians and Chinese historians? On what basis this number base on?

Also, what do you think about this?

Quote:
Their burial reports also showed a rather disproportionate number of the bodies buried each month. In the first one hundred days from December to March they recorded 7,549 bodies, about 75 per day. In the last three weeks in April when they went outside the city walls, however, they claimed to have buried an additional 104,718, about 5,000 bodies per day.192
http://www.nankingatrocities.net/1990s/nineties_02.htm


Quote:
But in a three-week period of April, the latter society claimed to have buried an additional 105,000 corpses, or a staggering 5,000 per day; this is close to an impossible feat.
http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/.../nanjing2.html


Does the number of dead bodies provided by Tsun Shan Tang reliable? From 7,549 and then suddenly to 104,718 bodies in the last three weeks.

Last edited by Zoopiter; December 12th, 2012 at 02:21 AM.
Zoopiter is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 08:35 PM   #58

fangqingming's Avatar
history princess
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: dragon's area
Posts: 2,848

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoopiter View Post
I hope you guys don't mind I revive this thread. There is something I want to ask. How many total victims massacre by the Japanese according to Japanese historians and Chinese historians? On what basis this number base on?

Also, what do you think about this?

Nanking Atrocities - In the 1990s


The Nanking Atrocities: Fact and Fable


Does the number of dead bodies provided by Tsun Shan Tang reliable? From 7,549 and then suddenly to 104,718 bodies in the last three weeks.
zoopiter, do you have ever heard about the "cry wall" in The nanjing massacre memorial hall?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jake, you are so kind so you always think goodwill of human being.

Yasukuni shrine problem is one hard problem, that doesn't mean japanese can't keep memorial
to dead people in war, the problem, more is about japanese's attitude to war.

japanese right wing members use the building to sing for militarism, and japanese politicians use the building to stimulus the neighbors, these actions let the neighbors to feel angry and insulted, that is unfair to neighbors who are victims.

the important point is the attitude that they refuse to plea, not the building.

nanking problem is same, the important point is the attitude, not the number.

Last edited by fangqingming; December 12th, 2012 at 09:11 PM.
fangqingming is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #59

Jake10's Avatar
Guardian Knight
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Canada
Posts: 10,803
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by fangqingming View Post
zoopiter, do you have ever heard about the "cry wall" in The nanjing massacre memorial hall?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jake, you are so kind so you always think goodwill of human being.

Yasukuni shrine problem is one hard problem, that doesn't mean japanese can't keep memorial
to dead people in war, the problem, more is about japanese's attitude to war.

japanese right wing members use the building to sing for militarism, and japanese politicians use the building to stimulus the neighbors, these actions let the neighbors to feel angry and insulted, that is unfair to neighbors who are victims.

the important point is the attitude that they refuse to plea, not the building.

nanking problem is same, the important point is the attitude, not the number.
Thanks for the compliment, although I also see the dark side of humans. The dark side grows when communications don't take place. People see others and think they know what they're doing and why, but without communicating we cannot know.

Well, the attitudes of politicians all over the world is a problem, but let me ask you this. What is a constructive solution to all this? How can all sides come to terms with it? This is what I mean about communicating, but first I'd like to hear what you think.
Jake10 is offline  
Old December 13th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #60

Mandate of Heaven's Avatar
Ate too much
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Not sure what it is
Posts: 6,114

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake10 View Post
Thanks for the compliment, although I also see the dark side of humans. The dark side grows when communications don't take place. People see others and think they know what they're doing and why, but without communicating we cannot know.

Well, the attitudes of politicians all over the world is a problem, but let me ask you this. What is a constructive solution to all this? How can all sides come to terms with it? This is what I mean about communicating, but first I'd like to hear what you think.
You can not communicate to people who refused to communicate. For years, comfort women have been protesting. Yet Japanese officials refused to see them.
Mandate of Heaven is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Asian History

Tags
china, japan, sino-japanese war


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A NEW PARADIGM and The 1937 Paris International Exposition. RonPrice Art and Cultural History 2 August 3rd, 2010 04:59 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.