RollingWave

Also, it is wrong to assume that Hideyoshi did not TRY to reduce Ieyesu's power.

After the downfall of the Hojo clan, Hideyoshi "persuaded" Ieysu to switch his realm to that of the Hojo clan's and giving his old realm to Hieyoshi. that looks like a even deal on surface but for Ieysu he had to uproot all his retainer and go to a new place where the locals are probably still quite hostile to them and are not well known. typically when mass land switch happen there's bound to be quite a bit of time spent on reconsolidation . and the Hojo switch was one of the largest scaled up till that point. Hideyoshi had probably calculated that the Tokugawa would end up weakened as a result of spending so much energy to get the whole thing settled.

You look at the Oda clan's expansion, there were plenty of examples of where new conquered areas were unstable and some had to be retaken or were lost altogether, after they took Echizen for example the area fell into chaos after just 1 year to Ikko rebellion and the puppet ally they installed there was killed in the process and the Oda had to redo the whole thing again. After they took the Takeda realm of Kai, they soon lost it to the Hojo clan after Nobunaga's death despite having station one of Nobunaga's most capable general in Takigawa Kazumasu there.

But Ieyesu and crew managed to get it done a lot faster and better than most ppl expected.

What's more, Tokugawa Ieyesu's greatest strength was the simple fact that unlike Nobunaga he lived long and didn't die unexpectedly, and unlike Hideyoshi he had no problem with having sons, (and unlike Nobunaga, his son was already well established by the time he died. and his heir didn't die almost immediately with him)

Rasputin1234

^Ironically, a major reason for Ieyasu's success in the Kanto region after his "transfer" was that he adopted many of the administrative systems of Takeda Shingen

clement

Of course that, and I never said the contrary. Hideyoshi inherited the richest part of the island, and Ieyasu the second one. In fact Hideyoshi did more than just trying to reduce the influence of Ieyasu. He even tried to defeat him but Ieyasu outwitted all the generals sent against him. Finally Hideyoshi chose to negociate but he still had the stronger position. On the other hand, Ieyasu did not succeed in winning the "succession war" but his resistance allowed him to find a reasonable understanding with Hideyoshi. He would be the second most powerful lord.

Dameoyaji

Exactly so.

leakbrewergator

You are severely underestimating Shingen's administrative and political capabilities, IMO.

Yoshihime

I don't think it's an underestimation if it's fact.

clement

?? I never talked about his administrative or political capabilities, I talked about his generalship. I often feel that he is considered a sort of japanese Caesar or Hannibal, and I think in this regard he is overrated. Not that he was bad of course, he was a magnificent commander, but not one of the greatest in history.

leakbrewergator

OK. Why do you consider it to be a fact?

Yoshihime

I don't know a lot about Shingen. It just sounded like he was speaking factually and I just wanted to revive this topic.

HeirofAlexander

I read that after the Uedahara loss ,and the loss of generals (among them Itagaki Nobukata). Shingen became a more cautious commander, and did not risk as mucha s he had done before. He also was always vary that Kenshin would be up to something and therefore often abandoned bigger campaigns such as the one in Sagami Province. He therefore did not follow Kenshin after his retreat at the 4th Kawanakajima. And did not try to take the Hamamatsu Castle after the battle of Mikata ga Hara