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Old February 19th, 2012, 04:49 AM   #1

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The Origin of the Dravidians


What are the major and accepted theories about the Origins of the Dravidians ? In my home state, the lemurian continental origin is quite prevalent and other than that I have never heard or seen any Tamilians questioning about the origin of the Dravidians. Leave Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada out the debate, because their language is totally changed and sanskritized and their original proto language is far from decipherment. May be Kannada can be included
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #2

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There are multiple theories about it. First of all, who were the dravidians. I presume you are mentioning the set of people who speak tamil and its off-shoot languages.

From wiki,
Dravidian_people Dravidian_people
"According to geneticist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in the book The History and Geography of Human Genes, the Dravidians were preceded in the subcontinent by an Austro-Asiatic people, and were followed by Indo-European-speaking migrants sometime later.
Most linguists believe that Dravidian-speaking people were spread throughout the Indian subcontinent before a series of Indo-Aryan migrations. In this view, the early Indus Valley civilization (Harappa and Mohenjo Daro) is often identified as having been Dravidian."

THE VEDIC ARYANS WERE RIG VEDIC
"we can either say Dravidian Seers were the first of Vedic peoples and Seers, or that Aryans or Vedic people came from the Southern Lands – both corrupt lands to escape demonic rulership, and also escape natural calamities as tsunamis, floods and earthquakes – just as Vedic people in the Indus-Sarasvati region did."

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I remember reading somewhere that when life originated in Africa,people migrated to all directions and the Indian plate moved away and merged with Asia (current). The people who had migrated to the Indian plate region formed the early tamil people. The tamil people were said to have been ruling Kumari Kandam.
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I'll invite one of my friends who has read a lot on this subject to answer this.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 10:22 AM   #3

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I wanted to start a thread about the origin and spread of Dravidian languages and found this discussion through the search function. It is an interesting topic and I am sure worthy of being discussed in detail.

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Originally Posted by 1991sudarshan View Post
What are the major and accepted theories about the Origins of the Dravidians ? In my home state, the lemurian continental origin is quite prevalent and other than that I have never heard or seen any Tamilians questioning about the origin of the Dravidians. Leave Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada out the debate, because their language is totally changed and sanskritized and their original proto language is far from decipherment. May be Kannada can be included
I guess we'll have to include all living Dravidian languages in order to trace the origins of Dravidians. Doesn't matter how much non-Dravidian influence they have had.

In fact, lack of work in the field of comparative linguistic research is one of the reasons why we have not been able to trace the origins of Dravidian languages so far.

As far as I know there are three probabilities about the origin of Dravidian languages :

1. They are native to South Asia.

2. They arrived from the fertile crescent/West Asia.

3. They arrived from the now sunken island of Lemuria.

The third possibility may seem a bit wacky. However, Lemuria may refer to South East Asia.

A related topic I am interested in is the impact of Dravidian languages on Indic IE languages. Present day North West Pakistan may have been a major dispersal point for Indic IE languages. Considering that all Indic IE languages show this linguistic impact - Indic IE languages and Dravidian would have certainly interacted before the Indic IE languages spread in South Asia.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #4
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I don't think I need to explain my position on theory no. 3 anymore, do I?

I think ultimately, it's a mix of 1 and 2 - though 1 is really "coastal route from Africa" - if this is correct, there should have been two waves. The first would be the ancestors of the Adi Dravidas, the Nicobarese, and the Australian Aborigines. The second would be a later migration from the fertile crescent route, that came and mixed with group 1. Group 3 would be the IE people, who have thoroughly mixed with the ancestral Dravidian people by now, whatever purists may want to believe!

This crazy mixture may be why these languages are so hard to relate to anything else...
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Old October 6th, 2012, 02:24 AM   #5

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I don't think I need to explain my position on theory no. 3 anymore, do I?
I am not aware about your position on the origin of Dravidians from S E Asia/Sundaland. We know that a lot of land got submerged in that area 10-20 thousand years ago and I am sure this would have displaced a lot of people.

Even if the Dravidian languages originated in S E Asia - it in no way negates the fact that they were spoken in the vicinity of IE languages before they spread in South Asia.

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Originally Posted by shash View Post
I think ultimately, it's a mix of 1 and 2 - though 1 is really "coastal route from Africa" - if this is correct, there should have been two waves. The first would be the ancestors of the Adi Dravidas, the Nicobarese, and the Australian Aborigines. The second would be a later migration from the fertile crescent route, that came and mixed with group 1. Group 3 would be the IE people, who have thoroughly mixed with the ancestral Dravidian people by now, whatever purists may want to believe!
Adi Dravidas? Are you implying that the first humans to populate India spoke an agglutinative language like the present day Dravidian ones?

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Originally Posted by shash View Post
This crazy mixture may be why these languages are so hard to relate to anything else...
hmmm ... I have read theories about the Dravidian languages being related to Altaic, Uralic, and other languages. So far, it seems the similarities are just limited to the structure of the languages.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhangora View Post
I am not aware about your position on the origin of Dravidians from S E Asia/Sundaland. We know that a lot of land got submerged in that area 10-20 thousand years ago and I am sure this would have displaced a lot of people.
I got into a few small-scale fights here where I argued that Lemuria was impossible... If you have the stomach for all 19 pages of the "IVC was Tamil" thread, you'll find my position. Or, you could see the last article on my site: Post archive

Quote:
Even if the Dravidian languages originated in S E Asia - it in no way negates the fact that they were spoken in the vicinity of IE languages before they spread in South Asia.
Like I said, I find that theory to be needlessly complicated - it requires a spread of people from India to SE Asia (how else would they get to SE in the first place, given out-of-Africa), where they develop a language, and then go back to India, replacing all traces of any existing languages from when they first spread out, the language family dies out in the south-east,... Lots of things have to go just right for this to happen... I'm not seeing it...

Quote:
Adi Dravidas? Are you implying that the first humans to populate India spoke an agglutinative language like the present day Dravidian ones?
No... They're traditionally referred to as the "adi dravidars" or "adivasis" - tribals living in the forests...

Quote:
hmmm ... I have read theories about the Dravidian languages being related to Altaic, Uralic, and other languages. So far, it seems the similarities are just limited to the structure of the languages.
Yeah, that's why I'm not thinking too deeply about those...
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Old October 6th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #7
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The origin of the dravidians? a big question

the answer will be "not sure"

Tamil cultural similarities echoed in olden Mediterranean based cultures, if by anthropology my view is from Africa ---->South India---->Australia

the people who migrated to south india further moved to north india--> most of the basic elements of civilization or a culture (community life) started ---->reached peak in bactrain Margina axus region-->splitted into various civilizations--->one of the division remigrated back to india and started the dravidian civilization
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Old October 6th, 2012, 07:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinothindie View Post
The origin of the dravidians? a big question

the answer will be "not sure"

Tamil cultural similarities echoed in olden Mediterranean based cultures, if by anthropology my view is from Africa ---->South India---->Australia

the people who migrated to south india further moved to north india--> most of the basic elements of civilization or a culture (community life) started ---->reached peak in bactrain Margina axus region-->splitted into various civilizations--->one of the division remigrated back to india and started the dravidian civilization

your theory does not seem to be right as there is no evidence of people from south migrating to north but quite the contrary as andhras and malyalis have much north indian genes.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 08:49 AM   #9

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
your theory does not seem to be right as there is no evidence of people from south migrating to north but quite the contrary as andhras and malyalis have much north indian genes.
Rubbish. You post are kinda racial propaganda. There is no such thing called north Indian Gene. The Genetic base of South India is quite the same. There are may be few admixture in Kerala due to the Inter marriage with the Arab merchants. I can point out a dark looking ultra orthodox high caste Malayali Brahmin and a fair looking Ezhava person.

Have you ever come across any Malayali or Tulu or Kannadiga or Telugu or Saurashtra people? I have come across .And you can not fix the skin colour to people from certain state or people speaking certain language.

I think the entire North India is take over by the Bollywood . The people are fooled to believe that the Entire North Indian people are fairer just by producing films with Fairer Punjabi actors in the Lead role. In fact there are darker Punjabis too. The dominant skin colour of the North India is black only and the South and the North India share the same genetic background.

Last edited by 1991sudarshan; October 6th, 2012 at 08:59 AM.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #10
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Who raised skin color now?

There are definitely two genetic substrands - Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian, which are both present in every person of Indian descent, though to varying degrees. ANI is often identified as the Aryan admixture, since it's similar to other IE cultures, while ASI is closer to the first wave out of Africa.

But Vinoth is also wrong in saying Africa -> India. It's really the coastal route, so there should be bits left in Maharashtra and the Yemen coast. The vector of spread should be generally west to east, not north to south or south to north...
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