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Old December 12th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #91

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Great thread.

I just found the thread, so have not had time to read through all the discussions. So I will respond to the OP. I agree with the OP, the way dates are assigned to Indian history - Indian texts, Indian kings and dynasties - is quite simply a joke. I don't know why such bad scholarship is tolerated. It is so arbitrarily done, that literally they might as well pull out dates from a hat. I have seen so much variance from historian to historian on a single date, of several centuries, and it also seems like there is a tendency for Western historians to choose the latest date possible.

There are two sheet anchors which are used to date Indian history, of which both are highly dubious: 1)The coming of the Indo-Aryans into India in 1500BCE and 2)Chandragupta Maurayas reign - proposed by two scholars who believed the world began in 4004BCE and who used that as their guide in assigning dates to Indian dynasties. Muller who assigned the date of 1500BCE, even later admitted he was guessing, that the Vedas could be thousands of years older - so why the heck have we maintained a date that was based on no evidence at all, but a guess? Jones who proposed Chandragupta Mauraya was Sandocrottus came to this conclusion on a whim on the reading of the Bhagvata purana simply because "Sandocrottus" had a phonetic similarity to "Chandragupta" - but he had not read the older Puranas which mentioned not one, but three Chandraguptas!

It is sordid indeed that the entire history of India has been built on such poor pseudoscientific scholarship - and despite us knowing this today - why the heck do we maintain it in our history books? Now that clear evidence has emerged that AIT is false and the Vedic people were in India even before the IVC, we will have to move the Vedic period back - and subsequently we will have to more every other date back.
Also if we follow long chronology we can easily say that eastern civilizations[magadha] started to expand around 1600 BC is through bimbisara.So agriculture must have begin at that time.
Before that all major kings were on the west around saraswathi river area.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:45 AM   #92

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I am more than sure that IVC will never be deciphered and this is saddest part of whole things.
Rajesh Rao: A Rosetta Stone for the Indus script | Video on TED.com

Watch this one and then you can come to any conclusions. Many scholars say that there are thousands of cuneiform tablets that aren't deciphered . In the above video you can find an Indus valley script seal excavated in the Middle East. The unique things about this seal that , it contains unique ending characters in comparison to the regular characters with which Seals excavated in the Indian subcontinent.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:08 AM   #93

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Rajesh Rao: A Rosetta Stone for the Indus script | Video on TED.com

Watch this one and then you can come to any conclusions. Many scholars say that there are thousands of cuneiform tablets that aren't deciphered . In the above video you can find an Indus valley script seal excavated in the Middle East. The unique things about this seal that , it contains unique ending characters in comparison to the regular characters with which Seals excavated in the Indian subcontinent.
saw it intresting
Isnt describing people according to their star birth there in the north?
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #94

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saw it intresting
Isnt describing people according to their star birth there in the north?
He is saying that it is possible that these fishes mean a name according to a constellation. It can also be north Indian.In north India there is a convention that names are based on their zodiac. But in Tamil language "Meen மீன்" means both star as well as Fish

Star வின் மீன் vin meen
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:06 AM   #95

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A script that links Brahmi with IVC was found in Dwarka remains, dated 1500 BCE.
Could you please project your facts in a new post?
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:35 AM   #96

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He is saying that it is possible that these fishes mean a name according to a constellation. It can also be north Indian.In north India there is a convention that names are based on their zodiac. But in Tamil language "Meen மீன்" means both star as well as Fish

Star வின் மீன் vin meen
ok
vin meaning?
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #97

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ok
vin meaning?
Vin == sky

vin meen == sky fish == star.

It could be, that ancient languages used same words to get multiple meaning.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #98
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The gap would make logical sense if the Persia invasion in the 5th century BCE :was the spur that inspired their own writing. When the Persians invaded, the Indians could see the benefit of writing for administration and business, and so adopted it themselves. If the Indian writing was created in the 5th BC, that would still be a couple centuries before the 1st inscription. Writing can develop quickly. A single Native American created a written language for his tribe the Cherokees after being exposed to English, even though he couldn't read English himself.


There is no clear time line of writing in the Indian subcontinent


We have the Sarasvati Civilization( Indus Valley) script. That civilization is dated around 3000 BCE.

Today we know it was a vast civilization, spreading from Central and north India to central Asia with well planned cities, canal systems, dockyards, and having a well developed knowledge of mathematics including geometry. They knew the decimal system, and designed precise weights and measures which were in exact proportions and ratios.

For images see: Ancient Indus Weights, Harappa.


It was a sea faring nation , with extensive sea trade with West and East Asia. In East Asia, the links to Easter Island have been noted as have the similarity in signs between the Rongo Rongo script and the Harappan script

Quite obviously they built ocean going ships which could transverse these great distance, and also they could navigate the open seas.

Their knowledge of astronomy is also indicated, and the constellation of the Great Bear or the Seven Rishis( seers) is found on a seal.

Recently a possible astronomical observatory has been found dated to that period. See article by Vahia and Menon below :

A possible astronomical observatory at Dholavira
M N Vahia1, 2 and Srikumar M Menon3
1 Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
2 Manipal Advanced Research Group, Manipal University, Manipal, Karnataka
3 Manipal School of Architecture and Planning, Manipal University, Manipal, Karnataka

http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Harappan%20Civilisation/Observatory%20at%20Dholavira.pdf

I will suggest it is quite impossible, not to have a writing system, for even to record astronomical events, replicate the weights, or architecture, or ships or the sophisticated altars, would require the transmission of knowledge, and could not be left simply to an oral ‘ pass it down’ system.

It is an enigma, why such a sophisticated civilization, did not leave behind extensive records.

They knew burnt bricks, and would have known the art of baking bricks and could just as well have put the writing on Clay tablets as the Sumerians did and baked them to make them into permanent records.

They could just as well put inscriptions on walls or stone even if to say " Killjoy was here".


The inscriptions found are short, on seals and only a few longer inscriptions.- Dholavir for example.


As writing existed in Sumer, and the two civilizations are supposed to be contemporaneous, , we should expect a simultaneous development of a writing system. .


Yet we do not find extensive writing records in the IVC civilization.


One explanation could be that they used to write on material that was perishable- Palm leaf, Bark, cloth, or paper.

These would not stand the ravages of time, especially the humid monsoon conditions of the Indian subcontinent.

Ravi Chaudhary

Last edited by ravichaudhary; December 12th, 2012 at 12:51 PM. Reason: m
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:16 AM   #99
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In Indian domestic writing systems there is an unexplicable jump from an unintelligible IVC script,( short inscriptions), to a Brahmi script some supposed 2,000 years later.

The Brahmi script, finally evolves into the Devnagari script , in which modern Hindi and Sanskrit are written.

Brahmi too is taken to have developed from the middle eastern systems of Aramaic and /or Kharosthi.



While the rest of the world is developing writing systems and evolving, a vast civilization disappears without a trace.


I suppose it could happen, but equally I would suggest the probability for such a scenario is not all that high.






There must be a better explanation






Ravi Chaudhary
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Old December 12th, 2012, 11:36 AM   #100

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Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
In Indian domestic writing systems there is an unexplicable jump from an unintelligible IVC script,( short inscriptions), to a Brahmi script some supposed 2,000 years later.

The Brahmi script, finally evolves into the Devnagari script , in which modern Hindi and Sanskrit are written.

Brahmi too is taken to have developed from the middle eastern systems of Aramaic and /or Kharosthi.



While the rest of the world is developing writing systems and evolving, a vast civilization disappears without a trace.


I suppose it could happen, but equally I would suggest the probability for such a scenario is not all that high.






There must be a better explanation






Ravi Chaudhary
And better explanation is that IVC script evolved to Brahmi script as per statistical analysis of Subhash Kak.
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