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Old April 11th, 2012, 01:40 AM   #1
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Post The history of the Vedic civilization


This is a topic that I have been interested in recently. Even if we reject the notion of the Aryan invasion/migration theory, due to the vast extent of archaeological and written evidences that blatantly reject the notion of an Aryan invasion or migration (this topic has been discussed numerous times), we come to the inevitable conclusion that our history of the so-called Vedic period is wrong. This is because, if the Saraswati civilization and the Vedic civiliztion are one and the same, we are left with a blank era of history. Even the dates formulated in the later Classical period of India were based upon the history of the “Vedic period”.

In fact, nearly all of our history of this period comes from the “mythological epics” which are deemed to be wild fairy-tales. However, not many people realize that the early scholars formulated the history of Vedic India using the epics themselves as sources and later condemning them as “mythologies”! In other words, our history of this period, is nothing but a distorted version of the history presented the epics themselves! I can give you many examples of this.


The Kuru clan, a branch of early Indo-Aryans, ruled the Ganga-Jamuna Doab and modern Haryana (earlier Eastern Punjab). However, till the Early Vedic period, the focus of the Vedic civilization was Punjab, while the Kuru land (Doab) was not even totally inhabited, and consisted mostly of dense forests.

Kuru_Kingdom Kuru_Kingdom

However, this information comes entirely from the ancient epics and some small amounts from the Vedas. Scholars may argue that the epics have truth but contain many exaggerated mythical elements that evolved over the ages, however, it is clear from the epics and the precise details and references to the battle of Kurukshetre, and many other events that take place during the course of the narrative, that Veda Vyas was not exaggerating or merely being poetic in his descriptions; these were an essential part of the world he lived; in his world mantras had actual power in the reality , Krishna: apparently a mythical god who has no existence in reality; is one of the key figures in the Mahabharata; if the Mahabharata is real, so is Krishna . The technology described is eccentric and almost weird.

You could argue that the epics were composed as a spiritual and ethical guide for Vaishanavas and devotees and were not intended to hold authentic descriptionsof history. But that hypothesis blatantly doesn’t hold true for trhe following reasons:
1. It has been written in the epic from time to time that Mahabharat is an "itihas" which exclusively means "thus occured". The words "Puraan" and "Itihas" were specifically coined by the Arya people to catagorize the "ancient" and "recent" events. Both the words denote history that has occured at different times.

2. It is mentioned in Aadiparva, Adhyaya 62 that the annals of the Bharat-Dynasty are recorded in the work.

3. It has been clearly stated in the Aadiparva, Bheeshmaparva etc. that this is "itihas". If the intentions of the writer were to write a poem or a work of fiction, he would have stated it to be a "mahakavya" or "katha".

4. It would to absurd to say that the Mahabharat is not a "itihas" due to its poetic nature. It was a custom in those days to write everything in poetic form.

5. Ved Vyas had decided to write down the "itihas" even before the initiation of the Mahabharat War. Therefore during the course of the War, Vyas meticulously noted down all the possible details. If it were a work of fiction, why would a person like Vyas want to fill his work with such minute and unnecessary details ?

6. A number of dynasties with their lond lineage of kings have been presented in the work. More than 50 kings from King Barhi to the Pandava King have been recorded. Additional information about the King, his wife, his scions, his relations, etc. have been accounted in great detail. If it were just fiction, only 4-5 kings would have sufficed to build the story on. Then why such mind-boggling details ?

7. The dynasties recorded in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat concur without a difference. Even the relations between different kings and their dynasties in both the great "epics" match with each other. If both were mere "epics" written by two entirely different at two different times, why would everything match even upto minor details ?

Mahabharat is of a later date than the Ramayan. Why would the author of the Mahabharat borrow the same ideas and characters as those of the author of Ramayan ?

8. Usually, the story of any "Maha-Kaavya" circulates about one or two main characters. If this were the case with Mahabharat, who would then be considered the "hero" of the drama ?

9. Many events mentioned in the Ramayan and Mahabharat are the same. Eg.: The mother of (latter) King Sagar was poisoned by his step-mother so that her child would be aborted. But the child was born nevertheless, who was therefore named Sagar.

10. The cities established by certain kings has been noted in detail.

11. All the characters in the "epic" are well-portrayed. Even single facet of their character and important events in their life have been recorded. Are such detailed accounts important in a "Maha-kavya"?

12. The weapons mentioned in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat are somewhat same. Infact, some weapons in the Ramayan are not mentioned in the latter "epic". (eg. Soorya'stra, Yamya'stra, Shoolva'stra..etc.) [ Considering the true occurance of the two great events, the above mentioned weapons might have disappreared in the era in-between the two events took place].

13. If it were a poetic fiction, such comprehensive account of the events on the battle-field would'nt have been given. For a poem, it is far-fetched. It will only serve the purpose of boring the reader to death!

14. The description of such myriad of characters is astonishing. It is impossible for one single-mind to be the genesis of that number of personality-types. It could only be true if the Mahabharat is the recording of a real-life drama.

15. The time and place of events have been accurately recorded. All such recordings are redudant for a "Maha-kavya".

16. Not much poetic description of the flora-and-fauna is given. Such description in ornate language is only used in fictional works and not while recording history.

17. Vyas mentions to have written this "itihas" after the death of King Dhrutarashtra. Why would he write so ? Did Shakespeare say that he wrote "Hamlet" after the death of Hamlet himself ?

18. The Greek historian Megasthenes has stated that Chandragupta Maurya was the 138 King in the lineage of Shri Krishna. This means that Shri Krishna did exist in the bygone era and that Mahabharat did really occur.

19. It was a custom to keep a track of the Kings lineage. The Chinese traveller confirms the above. Manahbharat being a true account of a occured War, such lineages are seen to be recorded.

20. Archaeological excations has discovered the submerged city of Dwaraka. This is the same Dwaraka as mentioned in the Mahabharata. [ The city of Dwaraka has been reckoned to have drowned in between 2000-3000 B.C.]

21. The astronomical recordings in the Mahabharata "epic" and other scriptures (Bhagwat), given the correct positions of the planets and stars during that time. How could a work of fiction be proved using mathematical tools ?

The astronomical descriptions clearly match the date that the Mahabharata is supposed to have taken place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmXHQzAtP4w

And who were the Kurus, but the Lunar or Kuru dynasty from which the Pandavas belonged to. It's not that the clan and the dynasty share the same name: they are the same dynasty. Therefore, the Kuru dynasty is not an indo-Aryan clan who existed from 1200 BC - circa 350 BC, but the dynasty presented in the Epics. Remember that most of the dates were from scholars who accepted biblical chronology.

Glorious India - Ikshvaku Dynasty

FAMILY TREE KURU DYNASTY

Remeber that most of these rulers supposedly live for thousands of years. The life expectancy in the Dwapura Yuga was 1000 years.

Also, the conflict of Rama Sethu. Geologists say that the bridge was not a man-made construct. According to the epic, the army of Varunas (ape-men, forest and cave dwellers) piled stones on the water; the true architect of the bridge was Varuna: a strange astral being who dwelt in the tide.

I could give you many examples of how Vedic history developed by modern scholars comes from the epics.
But the question is this; what is the real history of ancient Vedic India.
I started writing a wikia on the history in the Epics.
But, still, if we acknowledge the historicity of these epics, they clearly did not happen at the times proposed by scholars, nor were they trivial events; Vyas himself was there at the time and is in the narration, and the events he describes illustrate the battle of Kurukshetre on a major scale, he even describes the numbers in each army.

So the question we are left with is this: What is the true history of the Vedic civilization; did these events really happen and if so at what times? When did the various kings of the Ilshvaku dynasty live? Are the dates the Puranas give us exaggerated figures (Treta Yuga, etc)?

This is a major revelation; the events of the Vedas occurred much earlier than the so-called “Vedic period”. This will also affect our entire understanding of the classical period of India; Aryabhatta and such figures may have lived much earlier than we thought.

So what ere your thoughts on this?
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Old April 12th, 2012, 10:50 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Illumanation View Post
This is a topic that I have been interested in recently. Even if we reject the notion of the Aryan invasion/migration theory, due to the vast extent of archaeological and written evidences that blatantly reject the notion of an Aryan invasion or migration (this topic has been discussed numerous times), we come to the inevitable conclusion that our history of the so-called Vedic period is wrong. This is because, if the Saraswati civilization and the Vedic civiliztion are one and the same, we are left with a blank era of history. Even the dates formulated in the later Classical period of India were based upon the history of the “Vedic period”.

In fact, nearly all of our history of this period comes from the “mythological epics” which are deemed to be wild fairy-tales. However, not many people realize that the early scholars formulated the history of Vedic India using the epics themselves as sources and later condemning them as “mythologies”! In other words, our history of this period, is nothing but a distorted version of the history presented the epics themselves! I can give you many examples of this.


The Kuru clan, a branch of early Indo-Aryans, ruled the Ganga-Jamuna Doab and modern Haryana (earlier Eastern Punjab). However, till the Early Vedic period, the focus of the Vedic civilization was Punjab, while the Kuru land (Doab) was not even totally inhabited, and consisted mostly of dense forests.

Kuru Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, this information comes entirely from the ancient epics and some small amounts from the Vedas. Scholars may argue that the epics have truth but contain many exaggerated mythical elements that evolved over the ages, however, it is clear from the epics and the precise details and references to the battle of Kurukshetre, and many other events that take place during the course of the narrative, that Veda Vyas was not exaggerating or merely being poetic in his descriptions; these were an essential part of the world he lived; in his world mantras had actual power in the reality , Krishna: apparently a mythical god who has no existence in reality; is one of the key figures in the Mahabharata; if the Mahabharata is real, so is Krishna . The technology described is eccentric and almost weird.

You could argue that the epics were composed as a spiritual and ethical guide for Vaishanavas and devotees and were not intended to hold authentic descriptionsof history. But that hypothesis blatantly doesn’t hold true for trhe following reasons:
1. It has been written in the epic from time to time that Mahabharat is an "itihas" which exclusively means "thus occured". The words "Puraan" and "Itihas" were specifically coined by the Arya people to catagorize the "ancient" and "recent" events. Both the words denote history that has occured at different times.

2. It is mentioned in Aadiparva, Adhyaya 62 that the annals of the Bharat-Dynasty are recorded in the work.

3. It has been clearly stated in the Aadiparva, Bheeshmaparva etc. that this is "itihas". If the intentions of the writer were to write a poem or a work of fiction, he would have stated it to be a "mahakavya" or "katha".

4. It would to absurd to say that the Mahabharat is not a "itihas" due to its poetic nature. It was a custom in those days to write everything in poetic form.

5. Ved Vyas had decided to write down the "itihas" even before the initiation of the Mahabharat War. Therefore during the course of the War, Vyas meticulously noted down all the possible details. If it were a work of fiction, why would a person like Vyas want to fill his work with such minute and unnecessary details ?

6. A number of dynasties with their lond lineage of kings have been presented in the work. More than 50 kings from King Barhi to the Pandava King have been recorded. Additional information about the King, his wife, his scions, his relations, etc. have been accounted in great detail. If it were just fiction, only 4-5 kings would have sufficed to build the story on. Then why such mind-boggling details ?

7. The dynasties recorded in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat concur without a difference. Even the relations between different kings and their dynasties in both the great "epics" match with each other. If both were mere "epics" written by two entirely different at two different times, why would everything match even upto minor details ?

Mahabharat is of a later date than the Ramayan. Why would the author of the Mahabharat borrow the same ideas and characters as those of the author of Ramayan ?

8. Usually, the story of any "Maha-Kaavya" circulates about one or two main characters. If this were the case with Mahabharat, who would then be considered the "hero" of the drama ?

9. Many events mentioned in the Ramayan and Mahabharat are the same. Eg.: The mother of (latter) King Sagar was poisoned by his step-mother so that her child would be aborted. But the child was born nevertheless, who was therefore named Sagar.

10. The cities established by certain kings has been noted in detail.

11. All the characters in the "epic" are well-portrayed. Even single facet of their character and important events in their life have been recorded. Are such detailed accounts important in a "Maha-kavya"?

12. The weapons mentioned in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat are somewhat same. Infact, some weapons in the Ramayan are not mentioned in the latter "epic". (eg. Soorya'stra, Yamya'stra, Shoolva'stra..etc.) [ Considering the true occurance of the two great events, the above mentioned weapons might have disappreared in the era in-between the two events took place].

13. If it were a poetic fiction, such comprehensive account of the events on the battle-field would'nt have been given. For a poem, it is far-fetched. It will only serve the purpose of boring the reader to death!

14. The description of such myriad of characters is astonishing. It is impossible for one single-mind to be the genesis of that number of personality-types. It could only be true if the Mahabharat is the recording of a real-life drama.

15. The time and place of events have been accurately recorded. All such recordings are redudant for a "Maha-kavya".

16. Not much poetic description of the flora-and-fauna is given. Such description in ornate language is only used in fictional works and not while recording history.

17. Vyas mentions to have written this "itihas" after the death of King Dhrutarashtra. Why would he write so ? Did Shakespeare say that he wrote "Hamlet" after the death of Hamlet himself ?

18. The Greek historian Megasthenes has stated that Chandragupta Maurya was the 138 King in the lineage of Shri Krishna. This means that Shri Krishna did exist in the bygone era and that Mahabharat did really occur.

19. It was a custom to keep a track of the Kings lineage. The Chinese traveller confirms the above. Manahbharat being a true account of a occured War, such lineages are seen to be recorded.

20. Archaeological excations has discovered the submerged city of Dwaraka. This is the same Dwaraka as mentioned in the Mahabharata. [ The city of Dwaraka has been reckoned to have drowned in between 2000-3000 B.C.]

21. The astronomical recordings in the Mahabharata "epic" and other scriptures (Bhagwat), given the correct positions of the planets and stars during that time. How could a work of fiction be proved using mathematical tools ?

The astronomical descriptions clearly match the date that the Mahabharata is supposed to have taken place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmXHQzAtP4w

And who were the Kurus, but the Lunar or Kuru dynasty from which the Pandavas belonged to. It's not that the clan and the dynasty share the same name: they are the same dynasty. Therefore, the Kuru dynasty is not an indo-Aryan clan who existed from 1200 BC - circa 350 BC, but the dynasty presented in the Epics. Remember that most of the dates were from scholars who accepted biblical chronology.

Glorious India - Ikshvaku Dynasty

FAMILY TREE KURU DYNASTY

Remeber that most of these rulers supposedly live for thousands of years. The life expectancy in the Dwapura Yuga was 1000 years.

Also, the conflict of Rama Sethu. Geologists say that the bridge was not a man-made construct. According to the epic, the army of Varunas (ape-men, forest and cave dwellers) piled stones on the water; the true architect of the bridge was Varuna: a strange astral being who dwelt in the tide.

I could give you many examples of how Vedic history developed by modern scholars comes from the epics.
But the question is this; what is the real history of ancient Vedic India.
I started writing a wikia on the history in the Epics.
But, still, if we acknowledge the historicity of these epics, they clearly did not happen at the times proposed by scholars, nor were they trivial events; Vyas himself was there at the time and is in the narration, and the events he describes illustrate the battle of Kurukshetre on a major scale, he even describes the numbers in each army.

So the question we are left with is this: What is the true history of the Vedic civilization; did these events really happen and if so at what times? When did the various kings of the Ilshvaku dynasty live? Are the dates the Puranas give us exaggerated figures (Treta Yuga, etc)?

This is a major revelation; the events of the Vedas occurred much earlier than the so-called “Vedic period”. This will also affect our entire understanding of the classical period of India; Aryabhatta and such figures may have lived much earlier than we thought.

So what ere your thoughts on this?
You are right, our vedic culture and I am saying time of Ramayan could go back all the way to 17,00,000 years old, according to some Ramayan was that old. No one can guess in today's world how old vedic culture was but I am hopeful that with the help of science world will know one day and will be shocked to see how old Indian civilization was...Greece and Egypt can not be even compared in terms of oldest.

Regards
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Old April 12th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #3

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Excellent points Illumanation. You are well studied. But I only hope that people take this threat seriously and don't passthis as nationalistic propaganda
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:21 AM   #4
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Excellent points Illumanation. You are well studied. But I only hope that people take this threat seriously and don't passthis as nationalistic propaganda
Yes, that's the common reaction when people hear this stuff. Very little people realize that these texts were used as actual historical sources by the early scholars who distorted the epics for their own propaganda. Yet it was these same scholars who condemned the Vedas as mythologies!

However, I don't claim to believe that the epics are historical souces. For example: the Ramayana was ssupposed to have taken place in the Treta Yuga:
Yuga Yuga
. In the Sathya Yuga, human sature was supposedly 21 cubits and what of us? A mere 3.5 cubits.

Most of the early scholars like Pargiter (Puranas and the Kshatriya Tradition) , believed the Mahabharata to have taken at place at around 900 BC.

But researchers have used a software called Planetarium and have discovered that the astronomical descriptions match the actual position of the stars, they calculated the battle 3102 BC, which is exactly the same date that the Vedic tradition says it happened, even the days and monts match. I hold that the Mahabharata is probably an authentic description of a real series of events. The mythology in the epic is much more difficult matter. Judging by the descriptions of the Brahmastra; it sounds like a description of an atomic bomb. But that's a subject best left in the speculative history.

Ramayana of course is much more difficult to prove since the events happened millions of years. Just think about it: if the people of this time cremated themselves, then there would be virtually no archaeological evidence to prove it. Just imagine our situation in a millions of years time.

Imagine that the whole of humanity was destroyed by a catastrophic event, there were a few survivors that preserved the human race. Imagine that in a million years time, humanity has again made an advanced civilization, how would they ever know of our existence, they would dig up fossils and discover our remains, but what if the whole of humanity cremated themselves. Ever thing we built would be gone. Even places like Hiroshima would habitable and would be safe. Our cities would left in dust and ashes. It would be very difficult to find out about us, archaeologists might find preserved objects in the desert, but that require time and effort. In fact there are remains of shards of glass and stuff in the desert, but dating them is difficult. This is why it is difficult with Ramayana. Also, remains of giant humans were found, the effect would be colossal, it would mean the intelligent humans had existed million of years ago. Of course there is the possibility that Ramayana didn't happen in the Treta Yuga: Lord Rama Fact or Fiction.

If this dating is true: 10th January 5114 BCE. Then all that is left is to correct the history in our text books:
List_of_Indian_monarchs List_of_Indian_monarchs
.

You can clearly see that the Bharata dynasty is overruning the Vedic period and going into the harrapan period. This because the list is trying to squezze the dynasties into the time frames, even by occluding many kings. For example:the Ilshvaku dynasty, which it has conveniently ignored, had over 200 kings; and many of these kings had lots of sons who didn't occupy the throne. The only reason it ignored it was because it had to try and fit everything in the "Vedic "period. But without this important dynasty, yet the solar dynasty played one of the biggest roles in our history even Buddha belonged to it; you can't simply say it is mythological and not real.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Illumanation View Post
Yes, that's the common reaction when people hear this stuff. Very little people realize that these texts were used as actual historical sources by the early scholars who distorted the epics for their own propaganda. Yet it was these same scholars who condemned the Vedas as mythologies!

However, I don't claim to believe that the epics are historical souces. For example: the Ramayana was ssupposed to have taken place in the Treta Yuga: Yuga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In the Sathya Yuga, human sature was supposedly 21 cubits and what of us? A mere 3.5 cubits.

Most of the early scholars like Pargiter (Puranas and the Kshatriya Tradition) , believed the Mahabharata to have taken at place at around 900 BC.

But researchers have used a software called Planetarium and have discovered that the astronomical descriptions match the actual position of the stars, they calculated the battle 3102 BC, which is exactly the same date that the Vedic tradition says it happened, even the days and monts match. I hold that the Mahabharata is probably an authentic description of a real series of events. The mythology in the epic is much more difficult matter. Judging by the descriptions of the Brahmastra; it sounds like a description of an atomic bomb. But that's a subject best left in the speculative history.

Ramayana of course is much more difficult to prove since the events happened millions of years. Just think about it: if the people of this time cremated themselves, then there would be virtually no archaeological evidence to prove it. Just imagine our situation in a millions of years time.

Imagine that the whole of humanity was destroyed by a catastrophic event, there were a few survivors that preserved the human race. Imagine that in a million years time, humanity has again made an advanced civilization, how would they ever know of our existence, they would dig up fossils and discover our remains, but what if the whole of humanity cremated themselves. Ever thing we built would be gone. Even places like Hiroshima would habitable and would be safe. Our cities would left in dust and ashes. It would be very difficult to find out about us, archaeologists might find preserved objects in the desert, but that require time and effort. In fact there are remains of shards of glass and stuff in the desert, but dating them is difficult. This is why it is difficult with Ramayana. Also, remains of giant humans were found, the effect would be colossal, it would mean the intelligent humans had existed million of years ago. Of course there is the possibility that Ramayana didn't happen in the Treta Yuga: Lord Rama Fact or Fiction.

If this dating is true: 10th January 5114 BCE. Then all that is left is to correct the history in our text books: List of Indian monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

You can clearly see that the Bharata dynasty is overruning the Vedic period and going into the harrapan period. This because the list is trying to squezze the dynasties into the time frames, even by occluding many kings. For example:the Ilshvaku dynasty, which it has conveniently ignored, had over 200 kings; and many of these kings had lots of sons who didn't occupy the throne. The only reason it ignored it was because it had to try and fit everything in the "Vedic "period. But without this important dynasty, yet the solar dynasty played one of the biggest roles in our history even Buddha belonged to it; you can't simply say it is mythological and not real.
I for myself do not believe for even second that both epics, Ramayan and Mahabharat were fiction, simple reason, if you read carefully you will notice that how detailed they were written, for example in Mahabharata war they even give you precise numbers of soldier, places where they come from etc. there is a link and connection and even if he or she has small roll, you can trace their birth history and family information, no one will go into such details for just making a story....

Also like you mentioned, Bramahstra can be seen as atomic bomb of today's age, pushpak viman can be compared to today planes, there were description of people travelling across different planet, people coming from different planet, all this writting telling today's modern world that India were much advanced during that time and today's science have not reached to that level yet and I am sure we will reach to that level but will need may be 100's of years to achieve that.

All this also prove that if it was 500 years old then we would have achieved them again but it has to me 10's of thousands years old, we have too many reports of UFO seen in different parts of world and it is now not fiction any more it is proven that some UFO comes from different planet, recent invention have believed now that there are more galaxies like us in universe and there could be 100's of planet where life could be possible ( in our ancient books we have said that thousands of years ago that people lived in other planets and there are millions of galaxies across universe)

Don't forget so many today's world science invent based on Indian books, even Einstein said that world own India all it's invention as without India all these discoveries would have not been possible.

More next time with some other articles.

Cheers
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Old April 15th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #6
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I for myself do not believe for even second that both epics, Ramayan and Mahabharat were fiction, simple reason, if you read carefully you will notice that how detailed they were written, for example in Mahabharata war they even give you precise numbers of soldier, places where they come from etc. there is a link and connection and even if he or she has small roll, you can trace their birth history and family information, no one will go into such details for just making a story....

Also like you mentioned, Bramahstra can be seen as atomic bomb of today's age, pushpak viman can be compared to today planes, there were description of people travelling across different planet, people coming from different planet, all this writting telling today's modern world that India were much advanced during that time and today's science have not reached to that level yet and I am sure we will reach to that level but will need may be 100's of years to achieve that.

All this also prove that if it was 500 years old then we would have achieved them again but it has to me 10's of thousands years old, we have too many reports of UFO seen in different parts of world and it is now not fiction any more it is proven that some UFO comes from different planet, recent invention have believed now that there are more galaxies like us in universe and there could be 100's of planet where life could be possible ( in our ancient books we have said that thousands of years ago that people lived in other planets and there are millions of galaxies across universe)

Don't forget so many today's world science invent based on Indian books, even Einstein said that world own India all it's invention as without India all these discoveries would have not been possible.

More next time with some other articles.

Cheers
When it comes to the matter of wether this civilization was more advanced than us, it starts to get murky. For one, it depends on our definition of advanced.

Also, in the Ramayana time. People were much more advanced than in the Dwapura Yuga. They were so spiritually advanced that they had no need for the technologies of the later ages.

The history is very precisely recorded:
Category:Ancient_Hindu_kingdoms Category:Ancient_Hindu_kingdoms

Exotic_tribes_of_ancient_India Exotic_tribes_of_ancient_India

Many of the exotic tribes had homes on other planets as well, like the Nagas who lived in the Nether planets.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 10:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Illumanation View Post
When it comes to the matter of wether this civilization was more advanced than us, it starts to get murky. For one, it depends on our definition of advanced.

Also, in the Ramayana time. People were much more advanced than in the Dwapura Yuga. They were so spiritually advanced that they had no need for the technologies of the later ages.

The history is very precisely recorded: Category:Ancient Hindu kingdoms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exotic tribes of ancient India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of the exotic tribes had homes on other planets as well, like the Nagas who lived in the Nether planets.
I'm wondering why you say they lived on other planets? I didn't read the articles, but I'm curious why that has been a conclusion? Thanks!
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Old April 15th, 2012, 10:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Illumanation View Post
This is a topic that I have been interested in recently. Even if we reject the notion of the Aryan invasion/migration theory, due to the vast extent of archaeological and written evidences that blatantly reject the notion of an Aryan invasion or migration (this topic has been discussed numerous times), we come to the inevitable conclusion that our history of the so-called Vedic period is wrong. This is because, if the Saraswati civilization and the Vedic civiliztion are one and the same, we are left with a blank era of history. Even the dates formulated in the later Classical period of India were based upon the history of the “Vedic period”.

In fact, nearly all of our history of this period comes from the “mythological epics” which are deemed to be wild fairy-tales. However, not many people realize that the early scholars formulated the history of Vedic India using the epics themselves as sources and later condemning them as “mythologies”! In other words, our history of this period, is nothing but a distorted version of the history presented the epics themselves! I can give you many examples of this.


The Kuru clan, a branch of early Indo-Aryans, ruled the Ganga-Jamuna Doab and modern Haryana (earlier Eastern Punjab). However, till the Early Vedic period, the focus of the Vedic civilization was Punjab, while the Kuru land (Doab) was not even totally inhabited, and consisted mostly of dense forests.

Kuru Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, this information comes entirely from the ancient epics and some small amounts from the Vedas. Scholars may argue that the epics have truth but contain many exaggerated mythical elements that evolved over the ages, however, it is clear from the epics and the precise details and references to the battle of Kurukshetre, and many other events that take place during the course of the narrative, that Veda Vyas was not exaggerating or merely being poetic in his descriptions; these were an essential part of the world he lived; in his world mantras had actual power in the reality , Krishna: apparently a mythical god who has no existence in reality; is one of the key figures in the Mahabharata; if the Mahabharata is real, so is Krishna . The technology described is eccentric and almost weird.

You could argue that the epics were composed as a spiritual and ethical guide for Vaishanavas and devotees and were not intended to hold authentic descriptionsof history. But that hypothesis blatantly doesn’t hold true for trhe following reasons:
1. It has been written in the epic from time to time that Mahabharat is an "itihas" which exclusively means "thus occured". The words "Puraan" and "Itihas" were specifically coined by the Arya people to catagorize the "ancient" and "recent" events. Both the words denote history that has occured at different times.

2. It is mentioned in Aadiparva, Adhyaya 62 that the annals of the Bharat-Dynasty are recorded in the work.

3. It has been clearly stated in the Aadiparva, Bheeshmaparva etc. that this is "itihas". If the intentions of the writer were to write a poem or a work of fiction, he would have stated it to be a "mahakavya" or "katha".

4. It would to absurd to say that the Mahabharat is not a "itihas" due to its poetic nature. It was a custom in those days to write everything in poetic form.

5. Ved Vyas had decided to write down the "itihas" even before the initiation of the Mahabharat War. Therefore during the course of the War, Vyas meticulously noted down all the possible details. If it were a work of fiction, why would a person like Vyas want to fill his work with such minute and unnecessary details ?

6. A number of dynasties with their lond lineage of kings have been presented in the work. More than 50 kings from King Barhi to the Pandava King have been recorded. Additional information about the King, his wife, his scions, his relations, etc. have been accounted in great detail. If it were just fiction, only 4-5 kings would have sufficed to build the story on. Then why such mind-boggling details ?

7. The dynasties recorded in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat concur without a difference. Even the relations between different kings and their dynasties in both the great "epics" match with each other. If both were mere "epics" written by two entirely different at two different times, why would everything match even upto minor details ?

Mahabharat is of a later date than the Ramayan. Why would the author of the Mahabharat borrow the same ideas and characters as those of the author of Ramayan ?

8. Usually, the story of any "Maha-Kaavya" circulates about one or two main characters. If this were the case with Mahabharat, who would then be considered the "hero" of the drama ?

9. Many events mentioned in the Ramayan and Mahabharat are the same. Eg.: The mother of (latter) King Sagar was poisoned by his step-mother so that her child would be aborted. But the child was born nevertheless, who was therefore named Sagar.

10. The cities established by certain kings has been noted in detail.

11. All the characters in the "epic" are well-portrayed. Even single facet of their character and important events in their life have been recorded. Are such detailed accounts important in a "Maha-kavya"?

12. The weapons mentioned in the Ramayan and the Mahabharat are somewhat same. Infact, some weapons in the Ramayan are not mentioned in the latter "epic". (eg. Soorya'stra, Yamya'stra, Shoolva'stra..etc.) [ Considering the true occurance of the two great events, the above mentioned weapons might have disappreared in the era in-between the two events took place].

13. If it were a poetic fiction, such comprehensive account of the events on the battle-field would'nt have been given. For a poem, it is far-fetched. It will only serve the purpose of boring the reader to death!

14. The description of such myriad of characters is astonishing. It is impossible for one single-mind to be the genesis of that number of personality-types. It could only be true if the Mahabharat is the recording of a real-life drama.

15. The time and place of events have been accurately recorded. All such recordings are redudant for a "Maha-kavya".

16. Not much poetic description of the flora-and-fauna is given. Such description in ornate language is only used in fictional works and not while recording history.

17. Vyas mentions to have written this "itihas" after the death of King Dhrutarashtra. Why would he write so ? Did Shakespeare say that he wrote "Hamlet" after the death of Hamlet himself ?

18. The Greek historian Megasthenes has stated that Chandragupta Maurya was the 138 King in the lineage of Shri Krishna. This means that Shri Krishna did exist in the bygone era and that Mahabharat did really occur.

19. It was a custom to keep a track of the Kings lineage. The Chinese traveller confirms the above. Manahbharat being a true account of a occured War, such lineages are seen to be recorded.

20. Archaeological excations has discovered the submerged city of Dwaraka. This is the same Dwaraka as mentioned in the Mahabharata. [ The city of Dwaraka has been reckoned to have drowned in between 2000-3000 B.C.]

21. The astronomical recordings in the Mahabharata "epic" and other scriptures (Bhagwat), given the correct positions of the planets and stars during that time. How could a work of fiction be proved using mathematical tools ?

The astronomical descriptions clearly match the date that the Mahabharata is supposed to have taken place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmXHQzAtP4w

And who were the Kurus, but the Lunar or Kuru dynasty from which the Pandavas belonged to. It's not that the clan and the dynasty share the same name: they are the same dynasty. Therefore, the Kuru dynasty is not an indo-Aryan clan who existed from 1200 BC - circa 350 BC, but the dynasty presented in the Epics. Remember that most of the dates were from scholars who accepted biblical chronology.

Glorious India - Ikshvaku Dynasty

FAMILY TREE KURU DYNASTY

Remeber that most of these rulers supposedly live for thousands of years. The life expectancy in the Dwapura Yuga was 1000 years.

Also, the conflict of Rama Sethu. Geologists say that the bridge was not a man-made construct. According to the epic, the army of Varunas (ape-men, forest and cave dwellers) piled stones on the water; the true architect of the bridge was Varuna: a strange astral being who dwelt in the tide.

I could give you many examples of how Vedic history developed by modern scholars comes from the epics.
But the question is this; what is the real history of ancient Vedic India.
I started writing a wikia on the history in the Epics.
But, still, if we acknowledge the historicity of these epics, they clearly did not happen at the times proposed by scholars, nor were they trivial events; Vyas himself was there at the time and is in the narration, and the events he describes illustrate the battle of Kurukshetre on a major scale, he even describes the numbers in each army.

So the question we are left with is this: What is the true history of the Vedic civilization; did these events really happen and if so at what times? When did the various kings of the Ilshvaku dynasty live? Are the dates the Puranas give us exaggerated figures (Treta Yuga, etc)?

This is a major revelation; the events of the Vedas occurred much earlier than the so-called “Vedic period”. This will also affect our entire understanding of the classical period of India; Aryabhatta and such figures may have lived much earlier than we thought.

So what ere your thoughts on this?
Mahabartha and Ramayana are only "Ithihas"(great story) and not are historical events.If you read these Ithihasas in a right perspective without religious prejudice there are hundred of logical doubts will arise in our mind for which we can not give answers at all.

First, please tell me the period of Ramayana and mahabaratha.The period what you are telling is a baseless. What I am trying to say is, for a story or a fiction any one can just say that it occured one lakh year before or so. In fact Ramayana and mahabaratha is stories were high spiritual and philosophical truths are hiddden. Like parables, Ithihaasaas written for spiritual scholars, and puranaas for uneducated people to make them understand certain spiritual truth in form of stories. I will just give one example for this.

In mahabaratha, take the charactors of Pandavaas,Thrawpathi(the wife of Paandavaas) and Lord krishna.We all know that Paandavaas (five husbands) of Thrawpathi gambled with Thuriyodhana and pledged their wife. As they lost the game Thuriyodhana took Thrawpathi in his court and tried to humiliate her by stripping off her clothes. So, Thrawpathi, cried and prayed for Lord Krishna and Krishna helped and saved her. This is the story we know in Mahabaratha. Now, let me explain you the hidden spiritual philosophy of this incident.

The paandavaas are symbolically portrayed as Five senses, and Thrawpathy is symbolically portryed as AATHMA. The soul or Aathma should be kept pure,sinnless as women should be faithful to their Husbands. The Paandavas i.e.five senses commit sin(here Gambling is symbolically portrayed as Sin committed by five senses i.e sin committed by five senses i.e by sense,by eye, by ear, by nose, and by mouth)they damage the purity of their wife Thrawpathi. So, the Soul or AAthma cries and Pray to God (Lord Krishna) for Mercy or forgiveness and the Lord Krishna hears her prayer and helping her.This is the real meaning hidden in this story. The Bagawath Githa is a insertion in Mahabaratha in latter period (between 5-7 century A.D) to establish the Varnashrma Dharma or cast sysytem.

Regarding Bagawat gita I would like to ask you one logical question. Lord krishna gives his speeches to Arjuna in the battle field. Arjuna was sitting in the chariot and Krishna was driving the chariot pulled by horses. From the Indian history, the Horses were used in the battle for the first time is only in the period of KIng Alexander period and before horses were never used in the battle. So, either Gurushethra war or Lord Krishnas Bagawath Githa would never been happened. If Gurushethra war really happened why it is not mentioned in the indian history when King Alexander's war against Purushotham in the bank of River Seelam has recorded in the Indian History.

Secondly, the Ramusethu bridge is not a man made bridge. In Gulf of Mannar the depth of the sea is very less and the bridge like land is only the SAND DEPOSITs in that area and this is what clearly clarified by NASA.

Both Ramayana and Mahabaratha are only Epics or Stories and IT WAS NOT TRUE.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 01:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unmai53 View Post
Mahabartha and Ramayana are only "Ithihas"(great story) and not are historical events.If you read these Ithihasas in a right perspective without religious prejudice there are hundred of logical doubts will arise in our mind for which we can not give answers at all.

First, please tell me the period of Ramayana and mahabaratha.The period what you are telling is a baseless. What I am trying to say is, for a story or a fiction any one can just say that it occured one lakh year before or so. In fact Ramayana and mahabaratha is stories were high spiritual and philosophical truths are hiddden. Like parables, Ithihaasaas written for spiritual scholars, and puranaas for uneducated people to make them understand certain spiritual truth in form of stories. I will just give one example for this.

In mahabaratha, take the charactors of Pandavaas,Thrawpathi(the wife of Paandavaas) and Lord krishna.We all know that Paandavaas (five husbands) of Thrawpathi gambled with Thuriyodhana and pledged their wife. As they lost the game Thuriyodhana took Thrawpathi in his court and tried to humiliate her by stripping off her clothes. So, Thrawpathi, cried and prayed for Lord Krishna and Krishna helped and saved her. This is the story we know in Mahabaratha. Now, let me explain you the hidden spiritual philosophy of this incident.

The paandavaas are symbolically portrayed as Five senses, and Thrawpathy is symbolically portryed as AATHMA. The soul or Aathma should be kept pure,sinnless as women should be faithful to their Husbands. The Paandavas i.e.five senses commit sin(here Gambling is symbolically portrayed as Sin committed by five senses i.e sin committed by five senses i.e by sense,by eye, by ear, by nose, and by mouth)they damage the purity of their wife Thrawpathi. So, the Soul or AAthma cries and Pray to God (Lord Krishna) for Mercy or forgiveness and the Lord Krishna hears her prayer and helping her.This is the real meaning hidden in this story. The Bagawath Githa is a insertion in Mahabaratha in latter period (between 5-7 century A.D) to establish the Varnashrma Dharma or cast sysytem.

Regarding Bagawat gita I would like to ask you one logical question. Lord krishna gives his speeches to Arjuna in the battle field. Arjuna was sitting in the chariot and Krishna was driving the chariot pulled by horses. From the Indian history, the Horses were used in the battle for the first time is only in the period of KIng Alexander period and before horses were never used in the battle. So, either Gurushethra war or Lord Krishnas Bagawath Githa would never been happened. If Gurushethra war really happened why it is not mentioned in the indian history when King Alexander's war against Purushotham in the bank of River Seelam has recorded in the Indian History.

Secondly, the Ramusethu bridge is not a man made bridge. In Gulf of Mannar the depth of the sea is very less and the bridge like land is only the SAND DEPOSITs in that area and this is what clearly clarified by NASA.

Both Ramayana and Mahabaratha are only Epics or Stories and IT WAS NOT TRUE.
Your presumption that Alexander the Great introduced horses to India is not supported by any evidence. Tell where on earth did you read that Alexander introduced using chariots and horses to India. Link: Military History Of Ancient India - All Empires

Link: Ancient India Military

Link: Ancient Civilizations : Science : Invention of the Wheel

Link: Chess History: The Chariot in Ancient India

Link: Ancient Civilizations : Science : Invention of the Wheel Link: Chess History: The Chariot in Ancient India

Also, explain to me why the Vedas would mention horse sacrifice:
Ashvamedha Ashvamedha

Just because spiritual and ethical meanings are attached to the stories how does this support your statement: Lila (Hinduism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is also a story, that Draupadi is the palm and the Pandavas are the 5 fingers, this because the ancient hindus found these teachings important. Such morals are illustrated even in real life.

Besides, you completely missed the point of my post, it wasn't argue about the historicity of the epics. It was to point out that the scholars who developed ancient Vedic history used the epics as sources then distorted them for their own propaganda. These scholars like Pargiter were mostly British, and later on with the discovery of the Indus valley civilization, Indologists like Max Muller tried to distort Indian history. The whole of the history of the Vedic period was based (and through that via the classical period), was based on these mythologies. If you’d have bothered to read my thread properly.

I then proceed by saying a counter argument that the scholars could make and counter it myself by giving numerous evidences, I mention at the end that Planetarium had been used and had calculated the year to 3102 BC, therefore the Mahabharata was not a mythological interpretation of events that happened in the Vedic period and the Kuru clan was not an Indo-Aryan tribe, but the dynasty mentioned in the epic. You can’t change what’s written in the epics to fit your own story, but this is exactly the kind of thing the scholars like Pargiter did, he even went to the point of saying that kings in the Maghadh dynasty lived too long of his taste and therefore decided to change them.

P.S. You mention that Draupadi’s sari went sown on forever, actually, it does not say this in the Mahabharata : Enigmas in the Mahabharata - Articles about Mahabharata , Stories and Characters from Mahabharata, Mahabharatam in Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, Hindi..
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Old April 16th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Chraeloos View Post
I'm wondering why you say they lived on other planets? I didn't read the articles, but I'm curious why that has been a conclusion? Thanks!
Avadhuta | association for promotion of vegetarian life and indian culture | interesting news | The Universe of the Vedas

It's all related to hindu cosmology.
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