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Old August 22nd, 2014, 12:06 PM   #41
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cause their was no indian pride amongst most Indians
everyone put themselves before india and saw each other as enemies

also the mutiny was about Mughal power which Sikhs were against

their were no news papers or internet or tv so the british controlled the information given to the Sikhs as to the reason they were fighting the ppl who had rebelled

once again most Indians were super divided like tamils put themselves before india same with marathas and the list goes on

if their was a feel of nationalism then british would of easily bin over thrown

70 000 Englishmen is the most india had during the raj with most of the military government and police being Indians

96% of the east india army was indian an the communities that the british worked with and recruited from they treated well and encouraged to build up their anger against communities they had ancient rivalaries with
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Old March 30th, 2015, 05:40 AM   #42
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Hi guys, I've been following this thread for a while, I just wanted to sign up to say that Saul David's fantastic book The Devil's Wind has been made available for free on Kindle. Well worth you checking it out - provides a great overview of the topic!

The Devil's Wind: The Bengal Army and the Outbreak Of The Indian Mutiny eBook: Saul David: Amazon.co.uk: Books
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Old March 30th, 2015, 06:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by betgo View Post
Probably, because they were a fairly small minority, and felt more protected from Hindus and Muslims under British rule.
No, not at all. Where do even you get stuff like this? Sikhs fo those age did NOT consider themselves to be a distinct religion from Hinduism .The khalsa sikhs had goddess Durga on their flag
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.


They sided with the british because the sikh khalsa was itself defeated by an army of rajputs and bhumihars from UP recruited during the anglo sikh wars.

The sikhs explicitly stated that they wanted to take revenge on purabias.
You should note that purabias means easterners. Even at this point, they did not see themselves as sikhs distinct from Hindus.Rather they saw themselves as punjabis distinct from easterners(purabia)

Last edited by Drona Bharadwaja; March 30th, 2015 at 06:56 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 07:05 AM   #44

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drona Bharadwaja View Post
No, not at all. Where do even you get stuff like this? Sikhs fo those age did NOT consider themselves to be a distinct religion from Hinduism .The khalsa sikhs had goddess Durga on their flag
Click the image to open in full size.


They sided with the british because the sikh khalsa was itself defeated by an army of rajputs and bhumihars from UP recruited during the anglo sikh wars.

The sikhs explicitly stated that they wanted to take revenge on purabias.
You should note that purabias means easterners. Even at this point, they did not see themselves as sikhs distinct from Hindus.Rather they saw themselves as punjabis distinct from easterners(purabia)
Khalsa Sikhs did think they were different and distinct from Hinduism in that they rejected the Vedas. Several Gurus, including Guru Gobind Singh, argued against Hindu practices seeping back into the Khalsa and all Hindu holidays which Sikhs share have Sikh meanings.

The website you have posted that image from states that it is not a religious usage, but more akin to using common war motifs of warrior goddesses etc,.

Nishan Sahib Khanda Sikh Symbols Sikh Museum History Heritage Sikhs

If you study Sikh history specifically you will see that Sikhs after say... Guru Angad were starting to see themselves more and more as a unique community despite having roots in the Sant tradition.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 07:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
Khalsa Sikhs did think they were different and distinct from Hinduism in that they rejected the Vedas. Several Gurus, including Guru Gobind Singh, argued against Hindu practices seeping back into the Khalsa
Really? Gobind Singh argued against Hindu practices seeping back into the Khalsa?LOL

The Guru Gobind whom you have credited with purging Hindu practices actually tried to sacrifice his sons to Hindu goddess Durga.

No, Hindus are not saying this. This was narrated in Sikh scripture Gurbilas itself. It was also recorded by Indologists of 1800's

Infact, Sir monier williams, considered the father of Indology, himself confirms that Guru gobind tried to sacrifice his son to goddess Durga and only backed off when his wife vehemently opposed it.Instead, he sacrified his disciples(panj pyare) to Durga

Reference-

Brahmanism and Hinduism. Sir monier williams-page 166


https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...0durga&f=false
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Old March 30th, 2015, 07:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
Several Gurus, including Guru Gobind Singh, argued against Hindu practices seeping back into the Khalsa
This Guru Gobind whom you have credited with purging Hindu practices actually WORSHIPS Hindu tantric goddess Durga

Dasam granth, the scripture written by him is full of tantric themes and veneration of goddess durga

Here is one such sample-

Quote:

ਨਮੋ ਮਹਿਖ ਦਈਤ ਕੋ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਣੀ ॥
नमो महिख दईत को अंत करणी ॥
O the manifestation of supreme steel armour, O the destroyer of Mahishasura.

ਨਮੋ ਤੋਖਣੀ ਸੋਖਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਇਰਣੀ ॥੬॥੨੨੫॥
नमो तोखणी सोखणी सरब इरणी ॥६॥२२५॥
Destroyer of all, the killer of all! I salute Thee.6.225.

ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਹੰਤੀ ਕਰੂਰਾਛ ਘਾਯਾ ॥
बिड़ालाछ हंती करूराछ घाया ॥
O the killer of Biralachh, the destroyer of Karurachh.

ਦਿਜਗਿ ਦਯਾਰਦਨੀਅੰ ਨਮੋ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਯਾ ॥
दिजगि दयारदनीअं नमो जोग माया ॥
O the one showing mercy on Brahma in her delight, O Yog Maya! I salute Thee.

ਨਮੋ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਭਾਰਗਵੀਅੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਜੋਗ ਜ੍ਵਾਲੰ ਧਰੀ ਸਰਬ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੭॥੨੨੬॥
नमो भैरवी भारगवीअं भवानी ॥ नमो जोग ज्वालं धरी सरब मानी ॥७॥२२६॥
O Bhairavi, Bhavani, Jalandhari and the Destiny through all! I salute Thee.7.226.

ਅਧੀ ਉਰਧਵੀ ਆਪ ਰੂਪਾ ਅਪਾਰੀ ॥
अधी उरधवी आप रूपा अपारी ॥
Thou art seated everywhere, up and below.

ਰਮਾ ਰਸਟਰੀ ਕਾਮ ਰੂਪਾ ਕੁਮਾਰੀ ॥
रमा रसटरी काम रूपा कुमारी ॥
Thou art Lakshmi, Kamakhya and Kumar Kanya.

ਭਵੀ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਭੀਮ ਰੂਪਾ ॥
भवी भावनी भैरवी भीम रूपा ॥
Thou art Bhavani and manifestation of Bhairavi and Bhima,

ਨਮੋ ਹਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾਯੰ ਅਨੂਪਾ ॥੮॥੨੨੭॥
नमो हिंगुला पिंगुलायं अनूपा ॥८॥२२७॥
Thou art seated at Hinglaj and Pinglaj, Thou art unique! I salute Thee.8.227.

ਨਮੋ ਜੁਧਨੀ ਕਧੁ੍ਰਨੀ ਕ੍ਰੂਰ ਕਰਮਾ ॥
नमो जुधनी कधु्रनी क्रूर करमा ॥
Thou art the performer of dreadful acts, while infuriated in the battlefield.

ਮਹਾਂ ਬੁਧਿਨੀ ਸਿਧਿਨੀ ਸੁਧ ਕਰਮਾ ॥
महां बुधिनी सिधिनी सुध करमा ॥
Thou art most wise, master of powers and doer of pure deeds.

ਪਰੀ ਪਦਮਿਨੀ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਪਰਮ ਰੂਪਾ ॥
परी पदमिनी पारबती परम रूपा ॥
Thou art most beautiful like and apsara (heavenly damsel), Padmini and the goddess Parbati.

ਸਿਵੀ ਬਾਸਿਵੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮੀ ਰਿਧ ਕੂਪਾ ॥੯॥੨੨੮॥
सिवी बासिवी ब्राहमी रिध कूपा ॥९॥२२८॥
Thou art the source of power of Shiva, the power of Indra and the power of Brahma! I salute Thee.9.228.

ਮਿੜਾ ਮਾਰਜਨੀ ਸੂਰਤਵੀ ਮੋਹ ਕਰਤਾ ॥
मिड़ा मारजनी सूरतवी मोह करता ॥
Enchantress of the ghosts and goblins!


Source: Shri Dasam granth Sahib written by Guru gobind singh page 287
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib

if you read the passage you can see that Guru Gobind worships hinglaj,pinlaj and kamakhya who are tantric idol goddesses. He views Durga in Tantric themes as "enchantress of ghosts and goblins"

Last edited by Drona Bharadwaja; March 30th, 2015 at 07:54 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 07:51 AM   #47

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drona Bharadwaja View Post
Really? Gobind Singh argued against Hindu practices seeping back into the Khalsa?LOL

The Guru Gobind whom you have credited with purging Hindu practices actually tried to sacrifice his sons to Hindu goddess Durga.

No, Hindus are not saying this. This was narrated in Sikh scripture Gurbilas itself. It was also recorded by Indologists of 1800's

Infact, Sir monier williams, considered the father of Indology, himself confirms that Guru gobind tried to sacrifice his son to goddess Durga and only backed off when his wife vehemently opposed it.Instead, he sacrified his disciples(panj pyare) to Durga

Reference-

Brahmanism and Hinduism. Sir monier williams-page 166


https://books.google.co.in/books?id=...0durga&f=false
You do realize that it wasn't an actual sacrifice, and that the initial five were 'baptised' into the Khalsa. The initiation was unique, stirring amrit with a steel blade is not found in Hindu worship, as far as I know. They didn't die. And worship of Durga does not mean that they were Hindu, Sikhs acknowledge the existence of deities but that they are lesser than Waheguru... as opposed to Hindus who seem Durga on par with other devas. Gobind Singh did a lot to reform the movement, and instituted the 5 Ks as a symbol of faith and as a dress to differentiate Khalsa Sikhs from Hindus and Muslims.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 07:54 AM   #48

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Desam Granth is not considered equal or on equal footing as Sri Guru Granth Sahib. There is speculation that Gobind Singh didn't even write it, and only some sects consider it to be of legitimate spirituality. Buddhists also have Durga and a plethora of Gods... but that does not make Buddhism Hindu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drona Bharadwaja View Post
This Guru Gobind whom you have credited with purging Hindu practices actually WORSHIPS Hindu tantric goddess Durga

Dasam granth, the scripture written by him is full of tantric themes and veneration of goddess durga

Here is one such sample-

ਨਮੋ ਮਹਿਖ ਦਈਤ ਕੋ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਣੀ ॥
नमो महिख दईत को अंत करणी ॥
O the manifestation of supreme steel armour, O the destroyer of Mahishasura.

ਨਮੋ ਤੋਖਣੀ ਸੋਖਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਇਰਣੀ ॥੬॥੨੨੫॥
नमो तोखणी सोखणी सरब इरणी ॥६॥२२५॥
Destroyer of all, the killer of all! I salute Thee.6.225.

ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਹੰਤੀ ਕਰੂਰਾਛ ਘਾਯਾ ॥
बिड़ालाछ हंती करूराछ घाया ॥
O the killer of Biralachh, the destroyer of Karurachh.

ਦਿਜਗਿ ਦਯਾਰਦਨੀਅੰ ਨਮੋ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਯਾ ॥
दिजगि दयारदनीअं नमो जोग माया ॥
O the one showing mercy on Brahma in her delight, O Yog Maya! I salute Thee.

ਨਮੋ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਭਾਰਗਵੀਅੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਜੋਗ ਜ੍ਵਾਲੰ ਧਰੀ ਸਰਬ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੭॥੨੨੬॥
नमो भैरवी भारगवीअं भवानी ॥ नमो जोग ज्वालं धरी सरब मानी ॥७॥२२६॥
O Bhairavi, Bhavani, Jalandhari and the Destiny through all! I salute Thee.7.226.



Source: Shri Dasam granth Sahib written by Guru gobind singh page 287

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
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Old March 30th, 2015, 08:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
You do realize that it wasn't an actual sacrifice, and that the initial five were 'baptised' into the Khalsa.
Did you even care to read up the link? Or have you decided to shut your mind completely from facts? What you are saying as facts are actually some myths believed by modern religious sikhs. The guru INDEED tried to sacrifice his son to durga.And Guru indeed killed his follower in sacrifice! Is Monier williams lying? It was an ACTUAL sacrifice.That much can be seen in the sikh scriptures itself. The so called 'baptism' of panj pyare is a myth created by neo khalsa sikhs. Such a story never existed in the scriptures. That story was made up by tat khalsa singh sabha(who aims was to purge sikhism of its hindu roots) in early 1900's. we have paintings from gurudwaras showing their ACTUAL bloody sacrifice.


Quote:
The initiation was unique, stirring amrit with a steel blade is not found in Hindu worship, as far as I know.
Wow!!! You should really see how Rajputs are initiated. khanda is a pure Rajput tradition later adopted by sikhs


Quote:
They didn't die. And worship of Durga does not mean that they were Hindu, Sikhs acknowledge the existence of deities but that they are lesser than Waheguru...
as opposed to Hindus who seem Durga on par with other devas.
Wow!!! In sikh scripture Dasam Granth written by guru Gobind singh, goddess Durga is called 'parabrahman'-The one and only greatest goddess. She is also called the creator and destroyer. She is called the cause of all causes.She is eternal. There is nobody above her. Even the supreme god waheguru gets his power from Durga. In contrast, waheguru does NOT appear at all in Dasam Granth. His name is found only at Index

Quote:
ਨਮੋ ਸੂਲਣੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਪਾਣਿ ਮਾਤਾ ॥
नमो सूलणी सैहथी पाणि माता ॥
Thou art the mother of the universe and wielder of trident and dagger.


ਨਮੋ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਕਾਰਣੀਅੰ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਣੀ ॥੧੯॥੨੩੮॥
नमो तारणी कारणीअं क्रिपाणी ॥१९॥२३८॥
The deliverer of all, the cause of causes and the manifestation of the sword! I salute Thee.19.238.

ਥਪੇ ਖਾਪਣੀ ਥਾਪਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗਾ ॥
थपे खापणी थापणी सरब सोगा ॥
Thou art the creator of all interests and also their destroyer.

ਨਮੋ ਪੋਖਣੀ ਸੋਖਣੀ ਸਰਬ ਭਰਣੀ ॥
नमो पोखणी सोखणी सरब भरणी ॥
Preserver of all and destroyer of all;

ਨਮੋ ਪਰਮ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਵਰੀ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਣੀ ॥
नमो परम परमेस्वरी धरम करणी ॥
O the power of righteousness of the Supreme Lord!

ਨਮੋ ਕਾਰਣੀ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟ ਭਰਣੀ ॥੨੦॥੨੩੯॥
नमो कारणी तारणी स्रिसट भरणी ॥२०॥२३९॥
The sustainer of the world and the cause of all causes! I salute Thee.20.239.

ਨਮੋ ਤਾਰਣੀ ਕਾਰਣੀਯੰ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
नमो तारणी कारणीयं अपारा ॥
Thou art the deliverer of all, I salute Thee.

ਅਛੇਦੰ ਅਭੇਦੰ ਅਕਰਮੰ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੰ ॥
अछेदं अभेदं अकरमं सु धरमं ॥
Thou art indestructible, indistinguishable, deedless and Dhrma-incarnate.

ਅਜੇਯੰ ਅਭੇਯੰ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਿਤਯੰ ॥
अजेयं अभेयं निरंकार नितयं ॥
Thou art unconquerable, indistinguishable, formless, eternal;

ਨਿਰੂਪੰ ਨ੍ਰਿਬਾਣੰ ਨਮਿਤਯੰ ਅਕ੍ਰਿਤਯੰ ॥੩੩॥੨੫੨॥
निरूपं न्रिबाणं नमितयं अक्रितयं ॥३३॥२५२॥
Shapeless and the cause of nirvana (salvation) and all the works
source- Dasam granth -page 292

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


Goddess Durga from ancient Nurungabad gurudwara(1700-1800)

Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


Goddess durga on the cover of original guru granth sahib

Click the image to open in full size.

1835 painting shows Maharaja ranjit singh worshiping goddess Durga

Click the image to open in full size.


Quote:
Gobind Singh did a lot to reform the movement
What reform movement? Do you think he is a caste reformer? He rued the days when shudras hold power in kali yuga!!

Quote:
and instituted the 5 Ks as a symbol of faith and as a dress to differentiate Khalsa Sikhs from Hindus and Muslims.
I really feel like we are on a sikh website, not historum.There is absolutely no proof that guru gobind initiated the five kakars. It is found not in the scriptures nor in any ancient gurudwara inscriptions . Infact there is a 1765 painting where he is shown absolutely trimmed and clean without any beard

Last edited by Drona Bharadwaja; March 30th, 2015 at 09:01 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 08:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
Desam Granth is not considered equal or on equal footing as Sri Guru Granth Sahib. There is speculation that Gobind Singh didn't even write it, and only some sects consider it to be of legitimate spirituality. Buddhists also have Durga and a plethora of Gods... but that does not make Buddhism Hindu.
WOW Hatsoff!

Only some sects consider it to be of legitimate spirituality? Pray tell which sects dont?This really cracks me up. Dasam granth was considered to be of EQUAL footing with Guru granth sahib! Dont believe me?


Here is an 1800's painting by August Schoefft of Ranjit Singh inside golden temple listening to the granths! It can be seen that the two books Adi granth and Dasam granth have been placed on equal footing beside one another

Click the image to open in full size.


It was always considered very sacred. infact, chandi di var(praise of goddess durga) forms part of nitnem(daily worship) of sikhs. The people who are now opposed to Dasam granth are a small group of so called 'sikh scholars' who also tried to 'purge' guru granth sahib itself from 'Hindu elements'. If you meet a normal sikh, you would see that THEY ALL consider Dasam Granth to be sacred.

Infact, for some sects like damdami taksal and nihangs, Dasam granth is the foremost scripture!

Jhatka(Animal sacrifice) performed by sikhs while chanting chandi di var(praise of goddess chandi)
Click the image to open in full size.


I dont get your point anyway. If you want to degrade dasam granth just because it has hindu elements, I can show you such Hindu elements right in the present day guru granth sahib
Quote:
Buddhists also have Durga and a plethora of Gods... but that does not make Buddhism Hindu
LOL another oft heard neo sikh argument! In sikhism Goddess Durga is the supreme!!! There is nobody above her! Not so much in Buddhism!

Last edited by Drona Bharadwaja; March 30th, 2015 at 09:02 AM.
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