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Old March 30th, 2015, 08:46 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post

The website you have posted that image from states that it is not a religious usage, but more akin to using common war motifs of warrior goddesses etc,.

Nishan Sahib Khanda Sikh Symbols Sikh Museum History Heritage Sikhs
There you go! You are getting info of sikhism from sikhs and believe their word without ever questioning the historicity? !!! Why then dont you ask Hindus who would vouch that Harrapa is vedic, Indo aryan is native and there was no caste system in India.Why then don't you take the Hindu word of mouth?

Quote:
If you study Sikh history specifically you will see that Sikhs after say
Absolutely! Now we are talking!!! I humbly suggest you take up the books of Mc leod which are now considered as works of excellence in the Indologist community and roughly correspond to what I have been saying. Repeating what religious sikh apologists say on their websites brings us nowhere closer to reality
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Old March 30th, 2015, 08:50 AM   #52

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The Sikhs and Hindus were almost same till 1909, when because of caste discrimination 200 lower caste Sikhs were reconverted to Hinduism by Arya Samaj. It angered Sikh leaders, after this images of Hindu Gods and Goddess were removed from Golden Temple and Brahmin Priests were expelled AFAIK.

British during their rule tried to keep Sikhs on their side by helping corrupt Sikh Mohants, these Mohants were pro-British and corrupt, they used their influence on common Sikhs to keep them pro-British. So there was Gurudwara Reform Movement in 1920's with lots of bloodshed. However corrupt Sikh Mohants were finally expelled and Gurudwaras were reformed.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:09 AM   #53
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Khalsa Sikhs did think they were different and distinct from Hinduism in that they rejected the Vedas. .
Prem sumarag, an old scripture of sikhs, asks sikh kings to keep listening to vedas.

Source-

Prem Sumarag: The Testimony of a Sanatan Sikh


Even the western Indologist Mcleod notes that sikh kings listened to vedas. So much for the rejection of vedas!!!
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:11 AM   #54
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Kushwant singh, a prime sikh scholar who spend most of his life studying sikhism and was no way a fringe said 'sikhs are keshdhari(bearded) hindus'. Note that he was also a vocal critic of Hindutva groups
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:21 AM   #55

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Drona, your sarcasm is unneeded and does not offer credibility to your statements. As far as I know, WH Macleod is one of the most acclaimed scholars in this field, and discrditing him as simply an 'Indologist' does not offer up arguments against his works. Likewise, I am not just 'getting my info from Sikh websites' I took a Uni course in the history of the Punjab and Sikhism. To construct this idea that there is a neo-Sikh conspiracy to purge Hindu roots from Sikhism is absurd and strikes of the same kind of logical fallacies that other conspiracy theories have. You speak of Durga being called Higher than Waheguru in the Desam Granth... I ask you, where in the Sri Guru Granth does it say that? As the Adi Granth is accepted by all Sikhs and is historically constructed over the period of the Gurus, surely being the older of the two, Durga would appear.

Your painting of the royal court of Ranjit Singh shows two books, but how do you know one is the Desam Granth? Likewise,

Also, it is well known the affect that tying Sikhism and redefining it as a sect of Hinduism would have politically, especially for Indian nationalism... so ofcourse anyone who disagrees would be labeled as an 'Indologist' or what not.

The Gurdwara reform movement was in order to gain Gurdwaras back from Hindu Brahmins who had managed to gain control. There is no murti worship in Sikhism, and the Adi Granth speaks to that:

Quote:
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? - Page 556, Salok Mahalla 1
In the link you gave me there is no preview, please give me a page number reference for what you are referring to, because as far as I am concerned that didn't happen... and searching online can yield no results that Gobind Singh tried to actually sacrifice his son to Durga.

I am going through this copy: https://archive.org/details/brahmanismhindui00moni
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:33 AM   #56
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As per Khushwant Singh, Hinduism means you can be idol worshipper as well as idol breaker so if he calls Sikhs as keshadhari Hindus, that does not mean anything. Fact of the matter is that pagans always had unstable and ridiculously fluid boundaries in their societies so far as religions were concerned so we can never fix who was Hindu or who was not. I consider Hindu as anyone whose sacred books are Puranas, Vedas and Ramayana-Mahabharata ofcourse my definition is not going to be accepted.
When Muslims worshipped tress and such as late as 19th century, Sikhs would certainly have polytheism but trend to mock Ram, Krishna, Shiva etc. are certainly there among Sikhs. Sikhism grew in Punjab as Punjab was denuded of complex ritualism and bhakti towards Hindu Gods. Islamic rule had spread some faint ideas of monotheism.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:43 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
Drona, your sarcasm is unneeded and does not offer credibility to your statements. As far as I know, WH Macleod is one of the most acclaimed scholars in this field, and discrditing him as simply an 'Indologist' does not offer up arguments against his works. Likewise, I am not just 'getting my info from Sikh websites' I took a Uni course in the history of the Punjab and Sikhism. To construct this idea that there is a neo-Sikh conspiracy to purge Hindu roots from Sikhism is absurd and strikes of the same kind of logical fallacies that other conspiracy theories have. You speak of Durga being called Higher than Waheguru in the Desam Granth... I ask you, where in the Sri Guru Granth does it say that? As the Adi Granth is accepted by all Sikhs and is historically constructed over the period of the Gurus, surely being the older of the two, Durga would appear.

Your painting of the royal court of Ranjit Singh shows two books, but how do you know one is the Desam Granth? Likewise,

Also, it is well known the affect that tying Sikhism and redefining it as a sect of Hinduism would have politically, especially for Indian nationalism... so ofcourse anyone who disagrees would be labeled as an 'Indologist' or what not.

The Gurdwara reform movement was in order to gain Gurdwaras back from Hindu Brahmins who had managed to gain control. There is no murti worship in Sikhism, and the Adi Granth speaks to that:



In the link you gave me there is no preview, please give me a page number reference for what you are referring to, because as far as I am concerned that didn't happen... and searching online can yield no results that Gobind Singh tried to actually sacrifice his son to Durga.

I am going through this copy: https://archive.org/details/brahmanismhindui00moni
This is a double edged sword. If some Indians can be accused of nationalism when they try to show Hindu roots and features of Sikhism, some Westerners can also be accused of agenda ( and this accusation has lot of grounds) to promote a group as separate. Surely nothing benefits West as much as divided nations like Arab world whose leaders can be kicked at will, right?

Sikhs and Punjabi Muslims have loyally served Anglosphere and have been amply rewarded by countless Universities of anglosphere by giving intellectual arguments to their case and direct and indirect support to their holy wars against clueless Indians.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 09:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by BenSt View Post
Drona, your sarcasm is unneeded and does not offer credibility to your statements. As far as I know, WH Macleod is one of the most acclaimed scholars in this field, and discrditing him as simply an 'Indologist' does not offer up arguments against his works.

I see this just as a complete strawman. I have never tried to degrade 'Mcleod'. I respect him and my arguments here have been completely taken from Mcleod.I have already quoted him and anyone can see that. Religious sikhs have issued death threats to sikh scholars such as genuine mc'leod and pashaura singh. You on the other hand have been putting forth arguments completely contrary to sikh studies but commonplace in apologist sikh circles and radical sikh websites


Quote:
Likewise, I am not just 'getting my info from Sikh websites' I took a Uni course in the history of the Punjab and Sikhism. To construct this idea that there is a neo-Sikh conspiracy to purge Hindu roots from Sikhism is absurd and strikes of the same kind of logical fallacies that other conspiracy theories have.
LOL! Since you have a degree you must already know that this is not any conspiracy.This is an open mission propagated by singh sabhas. Infact, you should also know that tat khalsa scholars also advocated for pruning Bhatt bani from guru granth sahib.

Since you have a degree you must know that sanatan sikh sects exist EVEN TODAY such as nihangs, nirmalayas,udasis and sevapathis who consider themselves just a branch of Hindus. They did not accept the words of singh sabhas. This is their website

Sanatan Sikhi - The Sanatan Sikhs

Quote:
The Sanatan Sikhs regarded themselves as part of the wider Hindu community (then the dominant view within the Panth), and they tolerated such things as idols in the Golden Temple. The Tat Khalsa, on the other hand, insisted that Sikhism was a distinct and independent faith. The pamphlet Ham Hindu Nahin (1898; “We Are Not Hindus”)
Source- encyclopedia Brittanica

Wow! Is encyclopedia also cahoots with this fake conspiracy theory propagated by me?

Please wake up! This is not conspiracy theory. Tat khalsa has changed sikhism. Listen to mcleod's words

Quote:
The Tat Khalsa was the radical segment of the Singh Sabha movement represented by the Lahore branch, which was founded in 1879 and committed to the belief that Sikhs emphatically were not Hindus. Men such as Kahn Singh Nabha and Vir Singh belonged to this segment and the booklet by Kahn Singh, Hum Hindu Nahin, became its rallying-cry. Sikh history was recast in accordance with this understanding and from this recasting emerged a distinctive historiography.


Source-

567 Hew McLeod, The Tat Khalsa and Sikh historiography

This much is readily accepted by all sikh scholars.I REALLY wonder how you have never come across this in your studies

Infact, you do not know that history distortion is takng place even today.Recently, SGPC took off some images from golden temple because they contained 'Hindu motifs'

Last edited by Drona Bharadwaja; March 30th, 2015 at 10:01 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 10:00 AM   #59
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Sikhs were loyal to British because British recruited them deliberately. Sadly, common sense has said goodbye to many people,Punjabis were majority Muslims and one third Indian pagans( Hindu-sikh). Muslims were overall minority in India and any imperial power favors minorities of any nation. Sikhs had accumulated lot of monotheistic garbage like one quoted by the other user( idiots worshipping stones) and so British by help of authors like Kahan Singh of Nabha ensured that cycle is completed. Starve the nation but favor a certain part dominated by minorities- what a great idea , sirji.
Indian nationalists accuse British for this, why did not British brainwash people of Rajasthan or Bihar? If it was so easy for British to persuade any group as monotheist worshipping one, they would have done this in every part of India.
There were some other sects too which abused Hindu rituals and mocked Gods in similar language, Arya Samaj succeeded there. So those Indians of Punjab who had interiorised monotheism but had not adopted Islam went on to become Arya Samajis and Sikhs.
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Old March 30th, 2015, 10:05 AM   #60

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Mahants were not Hindus, they were Sikhs however they cut their beards and hair so average Sikh who generally were "Keshdhari" considered them as Hindus.

As for idolatry you should check Bhagat Dhana's story. Sikhism's approach to idolatry is somewhat in-consistent I think. No, today Sikhism is no longer counted as part of Hinduism.

I could not find the original link to Guru Grantha Sahib but you can check the content here http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/W...na_Idolator%3F
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