Scarbourough Shoal - Who has the best historical claim? - Page 3 - Historum

**mingming** · July 15th, 2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenge

In this age historical claims are moot. Many nations can make historical claims to lands that are not currently a part of their territory. China is weak internally and the government of that nation has to work exceedingly hard to maintain order within the country and to bond its citizens to the ideas and ideals presented by the government.

China's claims to many outlying areas are simply an attempt to cement its citizenry to the government. If historical claims had any validity then Mongolia could claim all of Asia simply because it once conquered the land. Spain could claim almost the entirety of the western hemisphere because of its initial discoveries in the area. China is attempting to do something that is beyond its reach.

Let's be honest here. Spain discovered nothing. Those lands were discovered thousands of years ago and were already settled.

**Lord_of_Gauda** · July 15th, 2012, 09:04 PM

What has being an older civilization gotto do with economic zones ?
By that accord, since Persia is a much older civilization than Arabian peninsula, all the offshore oil in the Persian gulf should belong to Iran.
That is ridiculous.
The rule of thumb is, you have exclusive economic rights to sea zones up to 200 nautical miles from your coastline. This puts the scarborough shoal competely in Philipino hands and it should be that.
Chinese claim to the entirity of South China sea is laughable, as Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia and Brunei have much stronger claims to SEZs in the South China Sea.

**mingming** · July 15th, 2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_of_Gauda

What has being an older civilization gotto do with economic zones ?
By that accord, since Persia is a much older civilization than Arabian peninsula, all the offshore oil in the Persian gulf should belong to Iran.
That is ridiculous.
The rule of thumb is, you have exclusive economic rights to sea zones up to 200 nautical miles from your coastline. This puts the scarborough shoal competely in Philipino hands and it should be that.
Chinese claim to the entirity of South China sea is laughable, as Vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia and Brunei have much stronger claims to SEZs in the South China Sea.

What you say is true. The only exception is China's claim to the Paracel Islands. Vietnam has no claim to it because they lost it in 1974.

**dagul** · July 15th, 2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireatwill

Skin color, second class citizens - are we talking about all those poor maids in Saudi Arabia or something far more sinister?

I hate to encounter racist Filipinos, because I thought as victims of racism they should have some sympathy.

Unfortunately I am not raising the issue of racism on the basis of the color of the skin, rather, it is the ethnicity of which, wherein if the Filipinos are highly influenced by Chinese culture then we should look like them, rather than our neighbors like Malaysians and Indonesians with whom we share our ethnicity through the color of our skin being brown people.

Like what Jesus had said, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing. In ignorance there is virtue of being forgiven.

**dagul** · July 15th, 2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mingming

I don't understand your point. The Philippines was the territory of Spain and then America. While European powers carved out spheres of influence in China, the Qing government was still a sovereign and independent state. The Japanese occupation of China was illegal under international law, and the Chinese government in Chongqing was the legitimate government. On the contrary, the Philippines was legally recognized as a colony until its independence. I don't see how the Philippines can have a better claim based on that.

It was the Spaniards who created the nation called the Philippines and after the Treaty of Paris, the Americans indeed colonized it, and the continuity of the jurisdiction over those territories commences in accordance with such occupation of the entire Philippine archipelago till liberation occurred in 1946. Contrary to Chinese claim, that while they allegedly had it during the Yuan Dynasty, the Chinese cannot claim continuity of their jurisdiction over the territory since the sea was under the control of the European powers, Japan, and then the U.S.

**mingming** · July 15th, 2012, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagul

It was the Spaniards who created the nation called the Philippines and after the Treaty of Paris, the Americans indeed colonized it, and the continuity of the jurisdiction over those territories commences in accordance with such occupation of the entire Philippine archipelago till liberation occurred in 1946. Contrary to Chinese claim, that while they allegedly had it during the Yuan Dynasty, the Chinese cannot claim continuity of their jurisdiction over the territory since the sea was under the control of the European powers, Japan, and then the U.S.

The Philippines as a sovereign nation did not emerge until 1946, therefore its claim can only begin in 1946 unless it was transferred from the mother country. The Spanish claims would have to be transferred to the US, which would then have to be transferred over to the Philippines in 1946. However, the Treaty of Paris makes no mention of the Reef as part of the Philippines's territory. Therefore, sovereignty of it was never transferred to the US.

**dagul** · July 15th, 2012, 09:37 PM

Our territorial claims however commence since the Spanish period. That is where the written history of the Philippines started, in view of the destruction of those that existed prior to that.

**mingming** · July 15th, 2012, 09:48 PM

Yeah but that doesn't change the fact that Spain never included the reef within territorial limits as defined in the Treaty of Paris. Considering the Philippines's 1935 Constitution was used until 1972, then considering that the territorial claims of the 1935 Constitution was based on the Treaty of Paris, then Philippines's claims to the reef didn't begin until 1972.

Historically, China has a better claim. Geographically, the Philippines has a better claim. In this day and age, history hardly matters.

**Belgarion** · July 15th, 2012, 09:49 PM

A glance at the map shows that The Philippines has the best claim to Scarborough Shoal. China is trying to establish itself an exclusive economic zone in the South China Sea with ambitious claims such as this and the Spratly Islands further to the south west.

**spellbanisher** · July 15th, 2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagul

It was the Spaniards who created the nation called the Philippines and after the Treaty of Paris, the Americans indeed colonized it, and the continuity of the jurisdiction over those territories commences in accordance with such occupation of the entire Philippine archipelago till liberation occurred in 1946. Contrary to Chinese claim, that while they allegedly had it during the Yuan Dynasty, the Chinese cannot claim continuity of their jurisdiction over the territory since the sea was under the control of the European powers, Japan, and then the U.S.

If the Chinese lost jurisdiction due to European, American, and Japanese conquests, then you are essentially appealing to the principle of might makes right. If that's the principle you want to apply to, then it should be obvious that China has better claim. And if China wanted to break the "continuous juridiction" that you say gives the Philippines the better claim, then China can simply do what European powers did to break Chinese jurisdiction: conquer those territories.

With that said, the Philippines does have the best claim, but not because of any appeals to historical jurisdiction.