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Old July 28th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #1

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The Manchus and The Jurchens


The Manchurians claimed that they are the descendants tribe of the Jurchens who founded the Jin dynasty. Nurhaci who founded the Qing dynasty proclaimed himself the descendant of the Jurchens and He is also credited for the creation of the Manchu script from the Mongolia script. But this theory has been challenged by many , even in our forum, in the "East Asian genetic relation" , there have been mention about the legitimacy of these claims. In other forums people say that the Manchus are no way related to the Jurchens and they are Koreans ( Korean nationalists ( historians) point of View) . Some say that the Jurchens were related to the kingdom of Go guryo and in turn the people of go guryo were Chinese, later absorbed by the Kingdom of Silla ( Chinese Nationalists point of view ) . In the 20th Century the some of the members of the Qing Royal family (
Aisin_Gioro Aisin_Gioro
) concentrated on the Jurchen and Khitan historical studies.

Aisin-Gioro_Ulhicun

Jin_Qizong Jin_Qizong

Jin_Guangping Jin_Guangping
.

Aisin- Gioro Ulhicun is one of the many descendants of the Qings and she currently lives in Japan . She specializes in the Manchu, Jurchen and Khitan history and language and she has published some research materials and analyses about the Jurchen and the Khitan stele scripts , records excavated in Manchuria and Mongolia.

These varied reposes and the explanation is so confusing and adding to that the Jurchens did not leave much of their records except for few steles and commemoration stones . What is the present scenario of this issue ?
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Old July 29th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #2

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the questions are huge questions. : )

at first, we need to difference these points.

1. manchus and jurchens are ethnic group, they are different ethnic, but they have related to each other.

2. qing regime and jin regime are different regimes, they founded by different groups, the places of origin are different, the two gegimes have not inheritance relationship.

3. why say that jurchens had not much records?
《金史》 《松漠纪闻》《祖宗实录》etc.
Quote:
In other forums people say that the Manchus are no way related to the Jurchens and they are Koreans ( Korean nationalists ( historians) point of View) .
that view is wrong, because manchus are related to jurchens. but say "they are koreans," I only can say : haha~~

koreans have some relates with jurchens, but influence is not much, korean nationalists exaggerated their influence to jurchens and distorted their influence in manchus.
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Old August 5th, 2012, 06:28 PM   #3
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Im Korean. Korean never think of Manchus were branch of Korean. If you saw that kind of people who insisted Manchus are Korean branch. They would be not Historians or Manchus independentists. In Korean history text. There are no Jin or qin are Korean history. But in Chinese history text. Buyeo, Gugoyeo, and Balhae(these are Korean history) were distorted as chinese history

1. Manchus insisted Their ancestor was decendants of Korean kingdoms like silla or Goguyoe. Manchus recently made their race AD 17. Jurchen was not related with Manchus. because Jurchen immigrate to North china or Inner Mongolia afthe they founded in Jin. and then Mongol attacked them. They almost were massacred. Some of them assimliated with Mongolian or Chinese.

2. Jurchen insisted them Korean silla prince "Hambo"'s descendent You can see their history book like 滿洲源流考 Because They have been controlled under Korean like Guguyeo and Balhae. They need to have the right

3. Manchus insisted of all countries in Manchuria and Northen korea were Manchus's ancestor. but not true

4. chinese and some manchus distorded Korean history was Chinese's vassal or Gogueyeo was manchus. at that time There were no manchus


5. Manchus and jurchen had actually lived in Amur river which was Russian far fast
They had been going down Manchuria and north China from AD10-AD17
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Old August 5th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaicKorean View Post
Im Korean. .
At first, welcome, I think two sides should do more communication for avoid misunderstanding..

Quote:
Korean never think of Manchus were branch of Korean. If you saw that kind of people who insisted Manchus are Korean branch. They would be not Historians or Manchus independentists. In Korean history text. There are no Jin or qin are Korean history. But in Chinese history text. Buyeo, Gugoyeo, and Balhae(these are Korean history) were distorted as chinese history.
As far I know, manchus independentists had never claimed that manchus wer branch of korean, they only say that manchus are honor ethnic manchus.

But we really had ever meet a korean who claim manchus honor is related with korean in historum.

I didn't know how to say about jin dynasty in korean history book, thanks for your information.

And buyeo kingdom, the range is in NE of china now, right? and Paekche(as branch of buyeo, we know that is korean history. but that don't mean all buyeo history belong to korean.)

Gugoyeo, we think it is controversial, you know that Gugoyeo population are not all korean, not in the range of korea range too.

What is Balhae? sorry, my english is not good, can you post it with chinese texts?

Quote:
1. Manchus insisted Their ancestor was decendants of Korean kingdoms like silla or Goguyoe.
Manchus had ever claimed they are the decendants of wanyan branch of jurchen, that is the origin of the saying that manchus's ancestor come from korean peninsula, but the claim had been proved for it is propaganda.

Quote:
Jurchen was not related with Manchus. because Jurchen immigrate to North china or Inner Mongolia afthe they founded in Jin. and then Mongol attacked them. They almost were massacred. Some of them assimliated with Mongolian or Chinese.
In fact , manchus is related with jurchen, you can search the most old eight big surname of manchus, they have wanyan surname too, not all jurchens went to north of china, they have many branchs too, one branch went back to NE of china, and melt into manchus later, simple to say, manchus swallowed a part of jurchens.

Quote:
2. Jurchen insisted them Korean silla prince "Hambo"'s descendent You can see their history book like 滿洲源流考 Because They have been controlled under Korean like Guguyeo and Balhae. They need to have the right
About origin of jurchen, wanyan tribe of jin dynasty , the leader come from korean peninsula, indeed, but here are some details.

1. only the leader from korean peninsula, don't mean he is korean, jin dynasty have a record that named 《祖宗实录》, the book war writened by jurchens historician themself, clearly wrote that the man is jurchens, not korean.

2. he lived in north of korean peninsula, then korea swallowed the area, then he left quickly, he even not live in korea rule above 1 years, the saying of he come from korea, it is a little exaggeration.

3. he meet wanyan tribes, then marry with wanyan tribes. became leader.

4. jurchens have a lot of tribes in that period, (above 30 tribes,) we can't say the whole group are korean when only one leader of one of tribes from korean peninsula,

5. the book 滿洲源流考, the writer is not jurchen at all, the writer is manchus, so there have a lot of propaganda for qing dynasty's rule.

Quote:
3. Manchus insisted of all countries in Manchuria and Northen korea were Manchus's ancestor. but not true
Agree. In fact, manchus swallowed them, the saying is for rule
propaganda .

Quote:
4. chinese and some manchus distorded Korean history was Chinese's vassal or Gogueyeo was manchus. at that time There were no manchus
1. Korea was china's vassal in qing dynasty, that is true.
2. I had never saw that any chinese claimed that Gogueyeo is manchus, she is a multinational country,that is common sense. include jurchens, han people, etc. there have not manchus in that period, but there have a group that named lishui mohe that is manchus group later.
BTW, korean can't say all gogueyeo population all are korean too.

Last edited by fangqingming; August 5th, 2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 06:34 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaicKorean View Post
1. Manchus insisted Their ancestor was decendants of Korean kingdoms like silla or Goguyoe. Manchus recently made their race AD 17. Jurchen was not related with Manchus. because Jurchen immigrate to North china or Inner Mongolia afthe they founded in Jin. and then Mongol attacked them. They almost were massacred. Some of them assimliated with Mongolian or Chinese.
2. Jurchen insisted them Korean silla prince "Hambo"'s descendent You can see their history book like 滿洲源流考 Because They have been controlled under Korean like Guguyeo and Balhae. They need to have the right
3. Manchus insisted of all countries in Manchuria and Northen korea were Manchus's ancestor. but not true
4. chinese and some manchus distorded Korean history was Chinese's vassal or Gogueyeo was manchus. at that time There were no manchus
5. Manchus and jurchen had actually lived in Amur river which was Russian far fast
They had been going down Manchuria and north China from AD10-AD17
First of All Welcome to the Forum

Quite Informative Post
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Old August 21st, 2012, 10:13 AM   #6
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The Jurchen called themselves "jusen" in their own language. It sounds very similar to "joson" (or Joseon), which is one of the names for Korea. We find connections in such simple things.
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Old August 21st, 2012, 12:22 PM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
The Jurchen called themselves "jusen" in their own language. It sounds very similar to "joson" (or Joseon), which is one of the names for Korea. We find connections in such simple things.
Jurchens and Koreans are two different ethnicities. At the time when the Jurchens existed, the Korean kingdom was called Goryeo; Joseon came much later.

I suggest that you shouldn't believe in those nationalistic Korean propaganda.
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Old August 21st, 2012, 06:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
Jurchens and Koreans are two different ethnicities. At the time when the Jurchens existed, the Korean kingdom was called Goryeo; Joseon came much later.

I suggest that you shouldn't believe in those nationalistic Korean propaganda.
That is incorrect. Joseon is actually the earliest name for Korea. Today, it is prefixed with "go", which means "ancient", but it was originally just Joseon. The later Joseon dynasty was named after an earlier kingdom and North Korea still retains this name.

I have to wonder, do you know anything about Korean history?
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Old August 22nd, 2012, 07:06 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
That is incorrect. Joseon is actually the earliest name for Korea. Today, it is prefixed with "go", which means "ancient", but it was originally just Joseon. The later Joseon dynasty was named after an earlier kingdom and North Korea still retains this name.

I have to wonder, do you know anything about Korean history?
I don't know too much about your nationalistic version of Korean history, and it's worthless for me to know, because it's too exaggerating, and sometimes it's even absurd. And I also have to wonder, do you know anything about Jurchen history or Chinese history?

Stop claiming that Jurchen, Mongol, and Manchu are all Korean descendants. They have nothing to do with Koreans.

I want to learn Korean history; however, some of you Korean nationalists just take it too far and make it seemingly unbelievable. That's what prevents me to fully appreciate Korean history.
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Old August 23rd, 2012, 06:38 PM   #10
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faint. i can't say these history in EN. Manchurians is the oldest in china. in BC of 夏商周, they had wrote in 竹书纪年 named 肃慎. named 挹娄(in 汉、三国)、named 勿吉(in 北朝)、named 靺鞨(in 隋、唐)、named 渤海、女真(辽、宋、元、明).
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