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Old September 19th, 2012, 11:56 PM   #1
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Korea's connection to Shang


I thought this might deserve its own thread. So I am reposting the following points:

1. The nobility of Korea, in terms of ancestry, was always part sinic (this is what the Korean nobility believed).

2. The Korean language is possibly the language of Shang. The Zhou and Qin kingdoms were adjacent to the Qiang, which were Tibetan tribes. Today, the main language of China is Sino-Tibetan. But it's possible that the Shang spoke a language closer to the "later"-Dongyi, who were adjacent to the Shang to the east (as opposed to the "early"-Dongyi purportedly referencing "only" to the Shang according to some Chinese historians). The Shang were once called "Dongyi", and ancient Koreans were also once called "Dongyi" by the Chinese, but some Chinese historians claim the term was being reused on different ethnicities. To be honest, I find what they are saying very confusing, and I found a source that connects the "early"-Dongyi (Shang) and the "later"-Dongyi (tribes east of Shang)

http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...ents/fei90.pdf (pg 175) (pg 11 in pdf)
Quote:
According to legend, King Yu was preceded by Yau and Shun,
whose predecessor was the mythic Yellow Emperor, Huang Dio.
Other legends tell of military expeditions by these leaders against
surrounding ethnic groups, called Man, Yi, Rong, and Di. The
Yellow Emperor was said to have defeated his enemies Chiyou
and Emperor Yan (Yan Di) somewhere in what is now Hebei
Province. According to “Records of a Historian” (Shi J i ) , Shun
had the conquered clans and tribes exiled to the regions of Man,
Yi, Rong, and Di for the purpose of changing the latters’ customs
and traditions. This evidently meant a cultural expansion from
the Central Plain. During Yu’s reign, according to “Zuo Qiuming’s
Chronicles” (Zuo Zhuan) , “Yu summoned the local rulers for a
meeting at Tushan, where he received tribute from ten thousand
176 The Tanner Lectures on Human Values
states.” The domain of his territory, called “Nine Lands” (Jiu
Zhou) by Yu Gong in a chapter in the “Book of History,” enclosed
the regions in the middle and lower reaches of the Yellow
River and the Lower Yangtze Valley, which formed a solid base
for the already thriving people of Hua Xia.
The people who rose after Xia were called Shang. Originally,
the Shangs were a tribe in the east called Dong Yi, who were nomadic
herdsmen at an earlier stage. Later they moved to the area
around Mount Ai in present-day Shandong, then westward to
eastern Henan, where they developed agriculture and learned to
use draft animals in farming. Having prospered on an agricultural
economy aided by cattle raising, they rose from a vassal state under
Xia and founded the dynasty of Shang after conquering the Nine
Lands.
They divided the country into five parts: central, eastern,
southern, western, and northern. The Shangs’ domain was described
in this way in the “Book of Odes” (Shi Jing) : “The country
is one thousand li across where the people reside, and it is
bordered by the Four Seas.” The land “within the Four Seas”
has been proved to include the provinces of Henan, Shandong,
Hebei, Liaoning, Shanxi, Shaanxi, Anhui, and part of Jiangsu and
Zhejiang, plus probably some areas in Jiangxi, and Hunan, and
Inner Mongolia.
The Shangs were succeeded by the Zhous. Coming from the
west, the Zhous, according to legend, originated from a group
called the Jiang Yuan, whom some historians identify as the
ancient Qiang group, who were in turn part of the Xi Rong, a
nationality inhabiting the land to the west of what was considered
the Central Kingdom.
3. Everyone kind of just assumes the Shang spoke an ancient form of Chinese, but we really don't know if it's true. It could actually be closer to the Korean language. Considering that some of the oldest noble families in Korea were originally from Shang, it's possible that Korean preserves many elements of the Shang language, or is at its core based on the Shang language.

Note: Modern Korean is considered to be the language of Silla. The Shang descended Cheongju Han clan was based in Silla. (but apparently their clan resided in all three of the major Korean kingdoms through branch families)

4. The Korean language is connected to the Dravidians in farming terminology even though the Dravidians lived very far away. However, Shang lies in between. If we can find Dravidian influences in Shang cultural artifacts, it further supports a genetic link to Shang in Korea.
The Korean Language - Ho-Min Sohn - Google Books

Last edited by Hansaram; September 20th, 2012 at 12:13 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #2

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you must know that all areas of middle of china were called as dongyi (include shandong province) before qin dynasty. but the word was used to call korean peninsula people and japanese and so on after qin dynasty.

dong yi before qin dynasty ≠ dongyi after qin dynasty

Last edited by fangqingming; September 20th, 2012 at 01:16 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 03:52 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
I thought this might deserve its own thread. So I am reposting the following points:

1. The nobility of Korea, in terms of ancestry, was always part sinic (this is what the Korean nobility believed).

2. The Korean language is possibly the language of Shang. The Zhou and Qin kingdoms were adjacent to the Qiang, which were Tibetan tribes. Today, the main language of China is Sino-Tibetan. But it's possible that the Shang spoke a language closer to the "later"-Dongyi, who were adjacent to the Shang to the east (as opposed to the "early"-Dongyi purportedly referencing "only" to the Shang according to some Chinese historians). The Shang were once called "Dongyi", and ancient Koreans were also once called "Dongyi" by the Chinese, but some Chinese historians claim the term was being reused on different ethnicities. To be honest, I find what they are saying very confusing, and I found a source that connects the "early"-Dongyi (Shang) and the "later"-Dongyi (tribes east of Shang)

http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...ents/fei90.pdf (pg 175) (pg 11 in pdf)
3. Everyone kind of just assumes the Shang spoke an ancient form of Chinese, but we really don't know if it's true. It could actually be closer to the Korean language. Considering that some of the oldest noble families in Korea were originally from Shang, it's possible that Korean preserves many elements of the Shang language, or is at its core based on the Shang language.

Note: Modern Korean is considered to be the language of Silla. The Shang descended Cheongju Han clan was based in Silla. (but apparently their clan resided in all three of the major Korean kingdoms through branch families)

4. The Korean language is connected to the Dravidians in farming terminology even though the Dravidians lived very far away. However, Shang lies in between. If we can find Dravidian influences in Shang cultural artifacts, it further supports a genetic link to Shang in Korea.
The Korean Language - Ho-Min Sohn - Google Books

No primary source have ever stated Shang are dong yi or Zhou are Qiang. Those were just theories by modern day scholar which are not widely accepted. Korean language are not even the same as Shang language. Shang language is Chinese and this is 100% fact and confirm whether you like it or not. This is not assumption but fact based on archaeological research on the oracle bone script, the ancestor of Chinese characters. Korean doesn't even have Chinese characters until it was brought in vary much later together with Buddhism.Also, Shang is not Dong Yi. The scholar who propose that idea are in minority. Also, the scholar are making assumption Xia dynasty call Shang people as dong yi which we are unable to clarify because we don't know if Xia dynasty exist or not. It's a common sense that Shang see Dong Yi as enemy to be conquered. Dong Yi are foreign tribe even to the Shang.Shang did not and never refer itself as dong yi but they refer dong yi as foreign tribe in the east to be conquered. Also, do keep in mind the research paper you posted is quite old and outdated and even until today, the theory are not accepted because otherwise, it would have been established as orthodox today.

Quote:
Di Xin was the younger brother of Wei Zi and Wei Zhong (both children of a concubine) and father of Wu Geng and Lu Fu. His father Di Yi had two brothers, Ji Zi and Bi Gan. Di Xin added to the territory of Shang by battling the tribes surrounding it, including the Dongyi to the east.
King Zhou of Shang - China culture

Shang=/=Dong Yi

Zhou and Shang on the other hand are the same people of different geopolitic as Shang and Zhou share similar language and culture. Zhou come from the west, but this west are not really that far from Shang and are actually from Wei river valley.

Quote:
Sharing the language and culture of the Shang, the early Zhou rulers, through conquest and colonization, gradually sinicized, that is, extended Shang culture through much of China Proper north of the Chang Jiang (Yangtze River).
http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...zhouperiod.htm

Last edited by Zoopiter; September 20th, 2012 at 05:34 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #4
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The Xia, shang, and zhou monarchs all claim descent from the yellow emperor and his civilization. The shang language is not a mystery language like the undeciphered minoan language, it is fully attested in the oracle bones which have been translated for the past 100 years, it has been classified as part of old chinese by linguists, who have been studying it for the past 100 years and none of them noticed any korean connection.

The shang royal family and court also survived in the state of song, where they served as vassals to the zhou monarchs. Confucius was a descendant of one of the Dukes of Song, and his descendants live on to this day.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 01:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
The Xia, shang, and zhou monarchs all claim descent from the yellow emperor and his civilization. The shang language is not a mystery language like the undeciphered minoan language, it is fully attested in the oracle bones which have been translated for the past 100 years, it has been classified as part of old chinese by linguists, who have been studying it for the past 100 years and none of them noticed any korean connection.

The shang royal family and court also survived in the state of song, where they served as vassals to the zhou monarchs. Confucius was a descendant of one of the Dukes of Song, and his descendants live on to this day.
The Shang were originally nomadic Dongyi who first moved into Shandong, then west into Henan, militarily conquering the Xia.
http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...ents/fei90.pdf
Quote:
The people who rose after Xia were called Shang. Originally,
the Shangs were a tribe in the east called Dong Yi, who were nomadic
herdsmen at an earlier stage. Later they moved to the area
around Mount Ai in present-day Shandong, then westward to
eastern Henan, where they developed agriculture and learned to
use draft animals in farming. Having prospered on an agricultural
economy aided by cattle raising, they rose from a vassal state under
Xia and founded the dynasty of Shang after conquering the Nine
Please do not dispute my source. It's Fei Xiaotong.
Fei_Xiaotong Fei_Xiaotong

I doubt the Shang were actually genetically descended from the Yellow emperor. I always thought the Yellow emperor founded an agricultural civilization.

Last edited by Hansaram; September 21st, 2012 at 01:44 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 02:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
The Shang were originally nomadic Dongyi who first moved into Shandong, then west into Henan, militarily conquering the Xia.
http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...ents/fei90.pdf

Please do not dispute my source. It's Fei Xiaotong.
Fei Xiaotong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt the Shang were actually genetically descended from the Yellow emperor. I always thought the Yellow emperor founded an agricultural civilization.
Dongyi means "eastern barbarians". Dongyi does not mean "all ethnic groups east of china are korean".

And is this where the claptrap about Confucius being korean came from? Confucius was a direct Shang dynasty descendant.

& -
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Old September 21st, 2012, 05:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
2. The Korean language is possibly the language of Shang. The Zhou and Qin kingdoms were adjacent to the Qiang, which were Tibetan tribes. Today, the main language of China is Sino-Tibetan. But it's possible that the Shang spoke a language closer to the "later"-Dongyi, who were adjacent to the Shang to the east (as opposed to the "early"-Dongyi purportedly referencing "only" to the Shang according to some Chinese historians). The Shang were once called "Dongyi", and Koreans were also once called "Dongyi" by the Chinese, but some Chinese historians claim the term was being reused on different ethnicities. To be honest, I find what they are saying very confusing, and I have found a source that connects the "early"-Dongyi (Shang) and the "later"-Dongyi (tribes east of Shang)

http://tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectu...ents/fei90.pdf (pg 175) (pg 11 in pdf)
Do not misrepresent your sources. Fei Xiaotong did not equate the later Dong Yi to the earlier Dong Yi in that article, and explicitly said that the Dong Yi were 'of various ethnic groups.' Indeed, in that very article he states that the Yao, Miao, She, Yue, Yi, and southern Chinese aboriginal groups all came from those 'Dong Yi' who were not absorbed into the Hua Xia. This is a typical 'convergence' narrative of Chinese history, designed to include all the groups of China under 'one big family' without regard for rigorous scholarship and methodologies. Fei Xiaotong is to be excused for this amateur performance, however - after all, he is not a historian / archaeologist. He is a sociologist whose area of study is contemporary China, and he published that article in 1988. It is not a very useful source for the study of the topic today.

With regards to your idea that the Korean language was / was from the Shang's language - this is quite absurd on linguistic grounds for two important reasons. First, it is the consensus of virtually all historical linguists today that the Shang language is ancestral to the Chinese language. For the Korean language to have come from the Shang's, that would require Chinese and Korean to be genetically related, and they are not.

Second, it is also the consensus of virtually all historical linguists today that the language of the oracle bone script was an early form of Chinese / Sinitic. This is based on the analysis of both grammatical markers in OBI and the phonological information contained in the rebuses and syllabaries embedded in the script.

Given these two widely accepted theories, there is practically no room to argue what you're arguing.

Quote:
3. Everyone kind of just assumes the Shang spoke an ancient form of Chinese, but we really don't know if it's true. It could actually be closer to the Korean language, considering that the oldest noble families in Korea were ethnic Shang. It's possible that Korean preserves many elements of the Shang language, or is at its core based on the Shang language.
The oldest noble families in Korea were not from Shang. The Jizi theory that you are relying on for this idea is close to being universally rejected by scholars, due to two facts - first, the lack of archaeological materials in Korea corresponding to Shang culture, which is the best argument against the migration of a Shang prince and his entourage to Korea; second, the absence of textual records detailing Jizi's migration to Korea until the Han Dynasty, despite this figure having existed in Chinese records long before the Han.

Indeed, the Jizi myth was not itself popular in Korea until the Goryeo and Joseon periods, when links to China and its civilization became highly prestigious.

Quote:
4. The Korean language is connected to the Dravidians in farming terminology even though the Dravidians lived very far away. However, Shang lies in between. If we can find Dravidian influences in Shang cultural artifacts, it further supports a genetic link to Shang in Korea.
The Korean Language - Ho-Min Sohn - Google Books
Korean is not a Dravidian language, and Dravidian influences on Shang cultural artifacts - were they to exist - would not show a specific genetic link to Shang in Korea, but, rather, a common influence emanating from the Indus Valley civilization towards East Asian cultures. Clippinger, who proposed the Dravidian theory of Korean in 1984, thus spoke of a migration of Dravidian speakers to southern Korea and Kyushu, while northern Korea was populated by a different - ie Yayoi - people. Given that scholars largely reject Jizi's presence in Korea, and of those who do not, attribute him to northern Korea, the Dravidian theory has generally very little to do with what you're arguing.

Last edited by Cerberus; September 21st, 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 08:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
Do not misrepresent your sources. Fei Xiaotong did not equate the later Dong Yi to the earlier Dong Yi in that article, and explicitly said that the Dong Yi were 'of various ethnic groups.' Indeed, in that very article he states that the Yao, Miao, She, Yue, Yi, and southern Chinese aboriginal groups all came from those 'Dong Yi' who were not absorbed into the Hua Xia. This is a typical 'convergence' narrative of Chinese history, designed to include all the groups of China under 'one big family' without regard for rigorous scholarship and methodologies. Fei Xiaotong is to be excused for this amateur performance, however - after all, he is not a historian / archaeologist. He is a sociologist whose area of study is contemporary China, and he published that article in 1988. It is not a very useful source for the study of the topic today.
I've already been made aware that the Dongyi was being used on different distinct groups. However, for the sake of communication, let me just point out that the Dongyi group being referred to were nomadic and herdsmen. They were not farmers. Also, they have a distinct migration path that is being specified. First, into Shandong, then into Henan.

Quote:
With regards to your idea that the Korean language was / was from the Shang's language - this is quite absurd on linguistic grounds for two important reasons. First, it is the consensus of virtually all historical linguists today that the Shang language is ancestral to the Chinese language. For the Korean language to have come from the Shang's, that would require Chinese and Korean to be genetically related, and they are not.
I should point out that the Shang probably did not invent the script from scratch. It was probably in development for indeterminable length of time, and possibly precedes the Shang. This is due to the fact that some of its elements are considered too advanced. Also, it could be like Latin being used in churches. The Oracle Bone script had religious significance, and its possible the Shang adopted this religion and were compelled to use the script as is even if its a foreign language to them. You can easily imagine them being told by a priesthood that its the language of Shangdi. Remember that the Shang were nomadic, so they could not have been as culturally sophisticated as the Xia kingdom they conquered.

Quote:
Second, it is also the consensus of virtually all historical linguists today that the language of the oracle bone script was an early form of Chinese / Sinitic. This is based on the analysis of both grammatical markers in OBI and the phonological information contained in the rebuses and syllabaries embedded in the script.

Given these two widely accepted theories, there is practically no room to argue what you're arguing.
It's still possible that the spoken language of Shang differed from the Oracle bone scripts. What if the oracle bones are the works of a Xia priesthood? Try to understand that language pluralism was very common in ancient times, existing in parallel to a lingua franca. It's highly likely the Shang spoke a different language from Xia since one was agricultural and civilized while the Shang were originally nomads.


Quote:
The oldest noble families in Korea were not from Shang. The Jizi theory that you are relying on for this idea is close to being universally rejected by scholars, due to two facts - first, the lack of archaeological materials in Korea corresponding to Shang culture, which is the best argument against the migration of a Shang prince and his entourage to Korea; second, the absence of textual records detailing Jizi's migration to Korea until the Han Dynasty, despite this figure having existed in Chinese records long before the Han.

Indeed, the Jizi myth was not itself popular in Korea until the Goryeo and Joseon periods, when links to China and its civilization became highly prestigious.
How do you know they weren't Shang? The Korean language's link to the Dravidians must have originated somewhere in the central plains. But today's Sino-Tibetan language lacks dravidian elements.

Quote:
Korean is not a Dravidian language, and Dravidian influences on Shang cultural artifacts - were they to exist - would not show a specific genetic link to Shang in Korea, but, rather, a common influence emanating from the Indus Valley civilization towards East Asian cultures. Clippinger, who proposed the Dravidian theory of Korean in 1984, thus spoke of a migration of Dravidian speakers to southern Korea and Kyushu, while northern Korea was populated by a different - ie Yayoi - people. Given that scholars largely reject Jizi's presence in Korea, and of those who do not, attribute him to northern Korea, the Dravidian theory has generally very little to do with what you're arguing.
I never said its a Dravidian language. I said the Korean farming terminology was derived from Dravidian, which means that ancient Koreans originally were taught how to farm in the Dravidian terminologies. The Dravidian influence likely spread through China to Korea, since there isn't much use for farming in the Mongolian Steppes. However, we don't see the same Dravidian influence within the Chinese language today, so that means at some point, the Dravidian influenced language was wiped out in the central plains after being passed on to Korea (and Japan). It was most likely passed through settlers from the central plains moving to Korea and Japan since there was no literacy and you have to be there to teach people. It makes sense that the settlers were from Shang because the Zhou likely came from the Qiang (Tibetans) and spoke a Sino-Tibetan language. The Qin who were also based in the western central plains on the exact same capital as the Zhou, Xi'an/Chang'an, probably spoke the same language as the Zhou, and due to these dynasties' immense influence and Qin's language centralization policy, these are the most likely candidates for eliminating Dravidian influenced languages in the central plains.

Last edited by Hansaram; September 21st, 2012 at 09:10 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 09:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansaram View Post
I've already been made aware that the Dongyi was being used on different distinct groups. However, for the sake of communication, let me just point out that the Dongyi group being referred to were nomadic and herdsmen. They were not farmers. Also, they have a distinct migration path that is being specified. First, into Shandong, then into Henan.
They have no distinct migration path. No primary source says that. It just Fei Xiaotong theory who are not even a qualified historians.

Quote:
I should point out that the Shang probably did not invent the script from scratch. It was probably in development for indeterminable length of time, and possibly precedes the Shang. This is due to the fact that some of its elements are considered too advanced. Also, it could be like Latin being used in churches. The Oracle Bone script had religious significance, and its possible the Shang adopted this religion and were compelled to use the script as is even if its a foreign language to them. You can easily imagine them being told by a priesthood that its the language of Shangdi. Remember that the Shang were nomadic, so they could not have been as culturally sophisticated as the Xia kingdom they conquered.
No script that precedes the Shang have ever been found. Shang language were in fact Chinese language, not Korean. No evidence shows that Shang adopted this religion and were compelled to use this script.The language in oracle bones script are in fact been proven as Chinese languages, not Korean or Altaic. Shang are Chinese language speakers, not Korean or Altaic.

Quote:
It's still possible that the spoken language of Shang differed from the Oracle bone scripts. What if the oracle bones are the works of a Xia priesthood? Try to understand that language pluralism was very common in ancient times, existing in parallel to a lingua franca. It's highly likely the Shang spoke a different language from Xia since one was agricultural and civilized while the Shang were originally nomads.
No, it's not possible. Again, no evidence or source support what you said. We don't even know if Xia exist or not. No archaeological evidence from Xia have ever been found so your here argument is totally useless. The words 'what if' does not equal to fact or evidence. Not even Fei Xiaotong said that. Please stop making fictional stories.

Quote:
How do you know they weren't Shang? Korea's language must have originated somewhere in the central plains, and its different from today's Sino-Tibetan language. When could the shift have occurred in China?
I think Cerberus already explain the flaw behind those logic which you ignore.

Quote:
I never said its a Dravidian language. I said the Korean farming terminology was derived from Dravidian. The Dravidian influence likely spread through China to Korea, since there isn't much use for farming in the Mongolian Steppes. However, we don't see the same Dravidian influence within the Chinese language today, so that means at some point, the Dravidian influenced language was wiped out in the central plains after being passed on to Korea (and Japan). It was most likely passed through settlers from the central plains moving to Korea and Japan. It makes sense that the settlers were Shang because the Zhou likely came from the Qiang (Tibetans) and spoke a Sino-Tibetan language. The Qin who were also based in the western central plains on the exact same capital as the Zhou, Xi'an/Chang'an, probably spoke the same language as the Zhou, and due to these dynasties' influence and Qin's language centralization policy, these are the most likely candidates for eliminating Dravidian influenced languages in the central plains.
There's no evidence of Dravidian influences in Shang cultural artifacts. Again, Zhou is not Qiang. No primary source said that. Those were theory by Fei Xiaotong who are not historians and that theory is not widely accepted. Your source are highly disputable.

Last edited by Zoopiter; September 21st, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2012, 09:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
Dongyi means "eastern barbarians". Dongyi does not mean "all ethnic groups east of china are korean".

And is this where the claptrap about Confucius being korean came from? Confucius was a direct Shang dynasty descendant.

& -
There's a theory that dong yi preQin, which is dong yi during Shang period is actually Austronesian people and Dawenkou culture is actually Austronesian.
Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan - Paul Kekai Manansala - Google Books

If this is true, then dong yi have always been living in Shandong since long time ago and never actually migrate from other places into Shandong like Hansaram and Fei Xiaotong suggest.

By the way, Shang have never been referred to as dong yi. It just amateurish mistake by Fei Xiaotong who are not historians. No primary source ever mention Shang being dong yi.

Last edited by Zoopiter; September 21st, 2012 at 09:50 PM.
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