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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:14 AM   #301

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Originally Posted by Jinit View Post
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking in general.

As for the foremer colonial subjects - it matters in which tone it is being used. And people who use that term generally don't have any good intentions.



British people are never equated with British raj or East India company. Atleast not by me. Infact Gandhi got overwhelmingly good response in Britain from ordinary people during round table conferance. And as I said earlier there are many good legacies of Raj in India, and most of them are actually the work of individual british citizens.



No I don't think so. Infact poor are not in better condition right now. May be even worse than that of British era. But now they have voice. They can raise their objection.
Fair enough.

Although many may not be able to "make their own decisions" and may prefer guidance.

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So in a way they are now responsible for their own condition. and atleast they don't have to pay any tax for the salt.
Tax is a horrible thing no matter who it is aimed at. We get taxed on everything, in Britain. We may even get taxed on speech, soon

Still, paying tax, is a neccessity.


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And its good that you mentioned caste system. The condition of lower caste started improving drastically after the indepandance. Before indepandance they couldn't even enter inside temple in many parts of India. especially not in the british ruled areas..
Yes, but my point was that a social structure does exist within Indian society, and a class divide exists.

Also, although it was rough, if Britain wanted any chance of gaining influence within india, then "divide and conquer" strategies were viable assets.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:32 AM   #302

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Originally Posted by The Imperial View Post
The British certainly did not help in demarginalizing the lower castes. In fact, they ruled on the basis of castes in India. They used the caste system to rule India.... an example is the names of the battalions in the Indian army, which are derived from the British Indian army.

But I am not saying the lower castes were better off before, I am just trying to dispel a common belief that Britishers tried to discourage the caste system. In fact they used it to their advantage ie for an easier administration. But we can't really blame them....they could have ruled India no other way.
So the caste system was an Indian invention, that was unchanged by British rule?

Why is it being brought up, if it is nothing to do with the British?
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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:44 AM   #303

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Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
Tax is a horrible thing no matter who it is aimed at. We get taxed on everything, in Britain. We may even get taxed on speech, soon

Still, paying tax, is a neccessity.

Yes paying tax is neccessity. And tax isn't a horrible thing if its used for the public from which the tax is being collected. However it becomes horrible when the commodity itself become hard to afford for the public. 5% or 10% hike in tax is acceptable but what about 300% hike? Is it acceptable?

Same happened with the salt tax. British weren't the first person to levy tax on the salt. Even Chankya's Arthshastra recommand salt tax as an imporatant source of revenue for country like India. However it was affordable by the poor people unlike that of the british raj.

I think you seems to be unaware of the historical importance of salt tax in Indian independence movement.

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Yes, but my point was that a social structure does exist within Indian society, and a class divide exists.
It depands. Condition is different in different parts of India. In the states like Gujarat and kerala it was better even during the british era. While in the states like Haryana even today people kills the couple if one them is from lower caste (honour killing). However if one looks at the statstics their condition is much better than it used to be in 1950. Many states has CM from the lower caste. They have seperate reservation quota for lower caste people. From every academical degree to every goverment post. Trust me people of upper caste actually envy them. For some one from upper caste its hard to get admiision in medical school with lower than 85% score while someone from lower caste can easily get admission in medical school with score as low as 50% or 60%. So class divide is still there in people's mind but one can't opress them like they used to do in past (it just like the African american situation of USA)

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Also, although it was rough, if Britain wanted any chance of gaining influence within india, then "divide and conquer" strategies were viable assets
but lower caste didn't have any power at that time which can be beneficial to the British. Infact you must be aware that after 1857 british didn't intervene much in the religious matter of neither hindus nor muslims. Parsis were given preferance to the hindus for the bureaurcratic jobs as in that way British didn't have to deal with the non sense of Hindu clerks complaining that I won't touch this one and I won't work with this one, the reason why PArsis became such a dominant community in British India despite their small numbers. So yes they used divide and rule but it certainly didn't help the lower caste.

Last edited by Jinit; January 8th, 2013 at 04:52 AM.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:47 AM   #304

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Originally Posted by Sargon of Akkad View Post
So the caste system was an Indian invention, that was unchanged by British rule?

Why is it being brought up, if it is nothing to do with the British?
As I said.... to dispel the common belief that the Britishers discouraged caste system in India.

This was because some posters brought up the caste system on this thread, it was directed at them.

And what's the problem here? Somebody asked for our opinions, we gave them.... and they should have obviously expected some criticism of the empire. Instead they are arguing that our opinion is wrong.

Most of my post is directed for them.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 05:55 AM   #305

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To Mangekyou :
The present condition in India is that of reverse discrimination. The backward castes have been given reservation in govt. jobs not only at the entrance stage but even for promotions. The Parliament has repeatedly made amendments to the Constitution to ensure that the Supreme Court does not overturn the provisions of reservation of jobs and for promotions. Earlier the Court has judged that once a backward caste person has been given advantage over his " forward " caste colleagues for the first promotion into a cadre ,he/she must await his/her turn for the previous seniors to get their next promotion and only then he/she can be given the second promotion in that cadre. Now Constitution has been amended to enable this promotion. So you see, everything is being done that the backward castes are assimilated in the main stream.
Not only the govt. jobs but even private jobs reservation is on the anvil.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 06:42 AM   #306

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^i agree. Upper castes have lower opportunities compared to lower castes.

Govt policies have made it harder for upper castes to get jobs, get seats in good universities etc
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Old January 8th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #307

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Originally Posted by Jinit View Post
Yes paying tax is neccessity. And tax isn't a horrible thing if its used for the public from which the tax is being collected. However it becomes horrible when the commodity itself become hard to afford for the public. 5% or 10% hike in tax is acceptable but what about 300% hike? Is it acceptable?
Dude, you dont have to tell me about tax, im aware of the positives and negatives of it.

Quote:
Same happened with the salt tax. British weren't the first person to levy tax on the salt. Even Chankya's Arthshastra recommand salt tax as an imporatant source of revenue for country like India. However it was affordable by the poor people unlike that of the british raj.
And thats the thing about tax. There will groups of people that get hit hard and groupps that dont. But being taxed is better than being slaughtered wholesale, like happened in other empires.

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I think you seems to be unaware of the historical importance of salt tax in Indian independence movement.
No, but you seem to mention it an awful lot.


Quote:
It depands. Condition is different in different parts of India. In the states like Gujarat and kerala it was better even during the british era. While in the states like Haryana even today people kills the couple if one them is from lower caste (honour killing). However if one looks at the statstics their condition is much better than it used to be in 1950. Many states has CM from the lower caste. They have seperate reservation quota for lower caste people. From every academical degree to every goverment post. Trust me people of upper caste actually envy them. For some one from upper caste its hard to get admiision in medical school with lower than 85% score while someone from lower caste can easily get admission in medical school with score as low as 50% or 60%. So class divide is still there in people's mind but one can't opress them like they used to do in past (it just like the African american situation of USA)



but lower caste didn't have any power at that time which can be beneficial to the British. Infact you must be aware that after 1857 british didn't intervene much in the religious matter of neither hindus nor muslims. Parsis were given preferance to the hindus for the bureaurcratic jobs as in that way British didn't have to deal with the non sense of Hindu clerks complaining that I won't touch this one and I won't work with this one, the reason why PArsis became such a dominant community in British India despite their small numbers. So yes they used divide and rule but it certainly didn't help the lower caste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rvsakhadeo View Post
To Mangekyou :
The present condition in India is that of reverse discrimination. The backward castes have been given reservation in govt. jobs not only at the entrance stage but even for promotions. The Parliament has repeatedly made amendments to the Constitution to ensure that the Supreme Court does not overturn the provisions of reservation of jobs and for promotions. Earlier the Court has judged that once a backward caste person has been given advantage over his " forward " caste colleagues for the first promotion into a cadre ,he/she must await his/her turn for the previous seniors to get their next promotion and only then he/she can be given the second promotion in that cadre. Now Constitution has been amended to enable this promotion. So you see, everything is being done that the backward castes are assimilated in the main stream.
Not only the govt. jobs but even private jobs reservation is on the anvil.
Thats all well and good and im glad things are starting to shift over. But thats wasn't my point. Since India gained independence, they have entered their own "enlightenment" period, and whilst they have had to learn things themselves, they had an idea of what direction they wanted to go, because of the British rule, so that issues like the caste system, whilst not being erased totally, because of tradition, were able to be dealt with more conveniently.

What I would like information/opinions on if possible, is the Caste system before British rule. How it was structured? What were the consequences? Was it good? was it bad?
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Old January 8th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #308

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Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
Thats all well and good and im glad things are starting to shift over. But thats wasn't my point. Since India gained independence, they have entered their own "enlightenment" period, and whilst they have had to learn things themselves, they had an idea of what direction they wanted to go, because of the British rule, so that issues like the caste system, whilst not being erased totally, because of tradition, were able to be dealt with more conveniently.

What I would like information/opinions on if possible, is the Caste system before British rule. How it was structured? What were the consequences? Was it good? was it bad?
The caste system before British rule is an extremely broad topic and probably well outside the scope of this thread. Maybe you can start a separate thread on that, if one doesn't already exist. The topic of this thread is the legacy of the British Raj and that should be our focus.

I don't see how British rule allowed the caste system to be "dealt with more conveniently". Can you care to elaborate on that? Social reform and protest against social injustices in 20th century India were spearheaded by nationalist Indian leaders like Ambedkar (an untouchable who would rise to become the author of India's Constitution), who were opposed to British rule as much as they were opposed to Indian traditionalism and social conservatism. In promoting their vision for social reform, these nationalist leaders did not seek inspiration from the British or Western model of society as much as they did from native Indic philosophies and ideals. Contrary to popular belief, India does have a long history of socio-religious dissent movements that rejected traditional Indian society and caste hierarchy. One of the earliest of these dissent movements was Buddhism, which Ambedkar derived much inspiration from (he would eventually convert to Buddhism, and was single-handedly responsible for its revival in modern India). Indeed, opposition to caste hierarchy and caste-based discrimination was present in India for at least two and a half millennia (basically since the caste system itself emerged), going back to the work of Siddhartha Gautama and Mahavira. It is true that none of these reform movements was able to bring about a decisive, lasting change on Indian society until modern times (for a variety of reasons), but it would be wrong to say that India could not have dealt with social injustice without being colonized.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 03:02 PM   #309

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The caste system before British rule is an extremely broad topic and probably well outside the scope of this thread. Maybe you can start a separate thread on that, if one doesn't already exist. The topic of this thread is the legacy of the British Raj and that should be our focus.
I think it is relevant, because it helps put things into perspective.

Quote:
I don't see how British rule allowed the caste system to be "dealt with more conveniently". Can you care to elaborate on that?
I am talking about the experiences of the indian people under British rule, allowing them to try and cut short the divide in the caste system.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #310

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Originally Posted by Mangekyou View Post
I am talking about the experiences of the indian people under British rule, allowing them to try and cut short the divide in the caste system.
What experiences are you talking about and how did they allow Indians to "try and cut short" the caste system? Please be more specific.
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