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Old November 7th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #21

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Facial reconstruction of a Dawenko woman, Shandong province, Eastern China, 6000 BP. She looked like Malays or Polynesians.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #22
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That's what the anthropologists and geneticists are saying. They say that Indians and Southeast Asians display greater variety than Northeast Asians, therefore they must be the older population. The highest diversity among modern humans is found in Africa.
I see, I got your point. I'd agree with you there. I thought you were referring to the diversity among looks.

Would you say the Japanese and the South Korean work ethic is better than that of the other Mongoloid cultures? I have read some articles, many years back, which stated that people living in the colder regions work harder and therefore have better chances of developing a modern economy.

In general, would you say that the North East Asians are more hard working than the South East Asians?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #23

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I see, I got your point. I'd agree with you there. I thought you were referring to the diversity among looks.

Would you say the Japanese and the South Korean work ethic is better than that of the other Mongoloid cultures? I have read some articles, many years back, which stated that people living in the colder regions work harder and therefore have better chances of developing a modern economy.

In general, would you say that the North East Asians are more hard working than the South East Asians?
By this logic, the Inuit peoples who live around the North Pole would be the most modern people on earth, but in fact they aren't.

I think it's impossible to generalize an entire ethnicity or an entire population. In my opinion, whether a person works hard or not really depends on the individual characters, not his or her cultural background.

It's wrong to perceive Northeast Asians as more superior than Southeast Asians or vice-versa. We are all human beings and we are equal.

Last edited by purakjelia; November 7th, 2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #24

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I checked more data and I found that I made some errors. Here are the dates of the afore mentioned ancient populations.

Liujiang - 30000 BP to 50000 BP

Upper Cave 101 - 30000 BP to 18000 BP, most likely 30000 to 24000 BP

Minatogawa - around 18000 BP

Zhenpiyan - around 10000 BP

Hemudu - around 7000 BP

Dawenko - around 6000 to 5000 BP

Yangshao - around 5000 BP

I also read an academic paper written by Chinese anthropologists. They claim that the earliest peoples who showed modern East Asian traits seem to be the Neolithic peoples of Northwestern China.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #25

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I don't know the exact date and name of this ancient man, and the Chinese characters beside this image don't indicate the information; it only says that this is the ancient Mongolian plateau type. Here we see definite and typical Mongoloid North Asian traits.

Click the image to open in full size.


Basically, my conlusion is that modern East Asians probably originated from somewhere in Northwestern China (Qinghai-Gansu) or Inner Mongolia. If you want to look for the remains of typical Mongoloid Asians, then look beyond the Great Wall, not inside the Great Wall. Neolithic Chinese of the Central Plains looked like Southeast Asians or Malays. Paleolithic Asians looked like Australoids.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:49 AM   #26
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I don't know the exact date and name of this ancient man, and the Chinese characters beside this image don't indicate the information; it only says that this is the ancient Mongolian plateau type. Here we see definite and typical Mongoloid North Asian traits.

Basically, my conlusion is that modern East Asians probably originated from somewhere in Northwestern China (Qinghai-Gansu) or Inner Mongolia. If you want to look for the remains of typical Mongoloid Asians, then look beyond the Great Wall, not inside the Great Wall. Neolithic Chinese of the Central Plains looked like Southeast Asians or Malays. Paleolithic Asians looked like Australoids.
Thanx a lot for the great info purakjelia. Lots of it is new to me.

I am no expert but personally I don't see any particular origins for a population as large and varied as the modern East Asians. I see a lot of randomness and chaos, of course there is no harm in finding out the order in all this mess

R U aware about the presence of Denisovan genes in the East Asian gene pool ---> Ancient Denisovan genome: Relationships between Denisovans and present-day humans revealed
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:16 AM   #27

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Thanx a lot for the great info purakjelia. Lots of it is new to me.

I am no expert but personally I don't see any particular origins for a population as large and varied as the modern East Asians. I see a lot of randomness and chaos, of course there is no harm in finding out the order in all this mess

R U aware about the presence of Denisovan genes in the East Asian gene pool ---> Ancient Denisovan genome: Relationships between Denisovans and present-day humans revealed
The Chinese archeologists classified the ancient skeletons and skulls that they found into six sub-categories representing six ancient populations: the Mongolian Plateau type, the Northeastern type, the Northern China type, the Northwestern type, the Central Plains type, and the Southern China type. They concluded that the skeletons and skulls which bear the closest resemblance to modernday Northeast Asians are the Northern China type (found in Inner Mongolia and Shanxi) and the Northwestern type (found in Qinghai and Gansu).

I'm aware of the Denisovans. Their remains were found in Siberia dated back to approximately 45000 BP, and they belonged to another Homo species, not Homo Sapiens. I heard the report that their genes are present in modernday Melanesian populations. I also heard from somewhere that there are 2.5% to 4% Neanderthal autosome genes found among modernday Eurasians. I'm a bit dubious about these reports.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #28
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Physical anthropology is a field fraught with issues. I have personally seen very different facial reconstructions than the ones purekjelia posted from other anthropologists working on the exact same topic. I think this is why genetics has gained a great deal of popularity in recent years in lieu of physical anthropology.

Last edited by Cerberus; November 9th, 2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #29

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Physical anthropology is a field fraught with issues. I have personally seen very different facial reconstructions than the ones purekjelia posted from other anthropologists working on the exact same topic. I think this is why genetics has gained a great deal of popularity in recent years in lieu of physical anthropology.
Speaking of genetics, I do have some genetic data on Neolithic Chinese cultures.

The Hemudu Neolithic rice farmers in Zhejiang were mostly O1-M119, according to a study done by the Chinese geneticists Li Hui and Jin Li in 2007. And according to the same study, the Neolithic peoples of the Taosi culture in Shanxi were O3-M122.

A new study done by the Jilin University about the genetics of the Neolithic peoples of the Hongshan culture has just come out recently. They tested several samples of human remains, and most of them belong to N1*, while a few belong to O3. The Hongshan culture was located around Inner Mongolia and Northeastern China.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
The Chinese archeologists classified the ancient skeletons and skulls that they found into six sub-categories representing six ancient populations: the Mongolian Plateau type, the Northeastern type, the Northern China type, the Northwestern type, the Central Plains type, and the Southern China type. They concluded that the skeletons and skulls which bear the closest resemblance to modernday Northeast Asians are the Northern China type (found in Inner Mongolia and Shanxi) and the Northwestern type (found in Qinghai and Gansu).

I'm aware of the Denisovans. Their remains were found in Siberia dated back to approximately 45000 BP, and they belonged to another Homo species, not Homo Sapiens. I heard the report that their genes are present in modernday Melanesian populations. I also heard from somewhere that there are 2.5% to 4% Neanderthal autosome genes found among modernday Eurasians. I'm a bit dubious about these reports.
The core area of the studies you point out do not actually draw into so many differences. The principle differences in the native Chinese types were really indicated by a type that was concurrent throughout the agricultural lands and that they existed with a north to south cline. But generally speaking they stack up to each other. But these are the ancient types. Going forwards in history one arrives at a point when geographically speaking the neighbors surrounding China start pouring in. The cline associated here is explained in a very different way and involves tracking the non Chinese associated physical types found throughout the regions beyond the riverine areas of China, namely the Yellow Yangtze and Pearl, and Liao if you want to count the Hongshan as well. Ancient central plains type were just Ancient central plains type and regarding the south there really wasn't a Southern China type. What emerges in the north during the historical periods of China are the somewhat numerous settlements of what you recognize to be the northern types. Regarding the nomenclature they can also be called the Ancient North China type or the Northern Frontier Zone type but there is no real meaning to split them into the northwestern and northeastern types. All of the north can be considered their homeland and they experience a west east cline. These would be the ones that eventually become the Rong and Di as they take their recourse in the high elevation ranges beyond the central plains north of Beijing in the east and the Taihang mountains to the west and in the Ordos and Gansu further and further west. One might take note that they actually spoke Tibeto Burman or received influence in linguistics associating with the eastwards directionality of Tibeto Burman speaking populations in the north. The other language link is the Altaic which also resided in the north.

Last edited by wingerman; June 7th, 2013 at 03:53 PM.
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