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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
Why did Han Troops commanders willing to kill fellow Han civilians under Manchus' order? Did they think killing people is wrong, especially your own ethnicity?

If Han soldiers wanted to kill someone, wouldn't they be wanting to kill the Manchus?
Han people massacred each other all the time during periods of instability and unrest, just because the Manchus are controlling them won't change that fact. After Li Zicheng killed the Prince of Fu, it was reported he used the skull to drink wine.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #12

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mingming View Post
Han people massacred each other all the time during periods of instability and unrest, just because the Manchus are controlling them won't change that fact. After Li Zicheng killed the Prince of Fu, it was reported he used the skull to drink wine.
And he cooked his meat along with deer meat to make the Feast of Fortune (福祿宴). Very brutal guy.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #13

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well.

1. at first, zhang's troops killed people in sichuan, it is not very credible, in fact, qing government had a lot of exaggeration and slander to zhang's troops.

one example is that qing government make one stele about zhang, tried to descript zhang as one cruel general, but on the real stele, zhang's word had not cruel, only reflection about fate.


common say, qing government framed up zhang's troop, qing troops did the big massacre, not zhang's troop.

2.
Quote:
by mingming

After Li Zicheng killed the Prince of Fu, it was reported he used the skull to drink wine.
Quote:
by mandate
And he cooked his meat along with deer meat to make the Feast of Fortune (福祿宴). Very brutal guy.
the thing is controversial, because some history records are conflict.

Last edited by fangqingming; November 14th, 2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 10:35 AM   #14
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There were Muslim ming loyalists who led thousands of muslims to support the Prince of Yanchang against the manchus. they were led by milayin and were supported by the khans of hami and turfan.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 09:30 AM   #15
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During the american civil war, the union side killed confederate civilians,
Can you provide any supporting real evidence for that claim? I have read a lot of on the American Civil War, and I recall reading that. Destruction of civilian properties, but not killing of civilians. Civil Wars typically result in the large loss of civilians - in the case of LiZicheng, 300,000 out of 378,000 died during the siege of Kaifeng, for example. Much of the losss in civilian life was indirect, due to starvation or disease, as a result of the breakdown of government serviced. Civil wars like the American Civil War, where civilian causalites are small, are the exception.

I suspect that much of the high civilian death toll during Li Zicheng wasn't just the typical starvation and disease civilians typically suffer under wartime, but also "pay back" time - many of Li Zicheng supports were poor peasants, and might not have hesistated at executing the rich landowners and government officials who exploited them.


In regards to the American civil war,
Quote:
The study had two significant shortcomings. Dr. Hacker could make no estimate of civilian deaths, an enduring question among historians, “because the overall number is too small relative to the overall number of soldiers killed.” And he could not tell how many of the battlefield dead belonged to each side. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/sc...anted=all&_r=0

Last edited by Bart Dale; November 26th, 2012 at 09:59 AM.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart Dale View Post
Can you provide any supporting real evidence for that claim? I have read a lot of on the American Civil War, and I recall reading that. Destruction of civilian properties, but not killing of civilians. Civil Wars typically result in the large loss of civilians - in the case of LiZicheng, 300,000 out of 378,000 died during the siege of Kaifeng, for example. Much of the losss in civilian life was indirect, due to starvation or disease, as a result of the breakdown of government serviced. Civil wars like the American Civil War, where civilian causalites are small, are the exception.

I suspect that much of the high civilian death toll during Li Zicheng wasn't just the typical starvation and disease civilians typically suffer under wartime, but also "pay back" time - many of Li Zicheng supports were poor peasants, and might not have hesistated at executing the rich landowners and government officials who exploited them.


In regards to the American civil war,
I was thinking about general sherman's march to the sea.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #17
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I was thinking about general sherman's march to the sea.

Sherman's march destroyed property, but it did not kill civilians. See for yourself.

Sherman's March to the Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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