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Old November 7th, 2012, 04:42 AM   #1
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Li Zicheng killing Han Chinese civilians?


Did Li Zicheng's army kill any Han Chinese civilians? If yes, why did he order his army to kill Han Chinese? What is the reason for killing his his own race, Li Zicheng is Han himself.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #2
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Could you explain Lizicheng killed Han Chinese.I think he was only rebellion,but not strong enough ,lost war with Wu San Gui& Manchus.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 02:33 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
Did Li Zicheng's army kill any Han Chinese civilians? If yes, why did he order his army to kill Han Chinese? What is the reason for killing his his own race, Li Zicheng is Han himself.
During the american civil war, the union side killed confederate civilians, in the russian civil war civilians were killed, and in every other civil war people from the same ethnic group killed each other. Why is this a shock to you?
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Old November 11th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #4

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The bandits at Ming's end were horrifying mobs. They were people who were trying to survive an extremely harsh time and had little scruples or principle. Li, although the leader of the biggest bandit group, rose from the lowest rank of such mob. Yes, Li's mobs killed stunning number of Han Chinese, and many of them were not killed out of necessity. Think of the horror under mob rules during the French Revolution or anywhere.

Actually, Li wasn't even the biggest mass murderer of his time. Another mob leader, Zhang Xien-zhong, slaughtered the province of Szechuan to such an extent that "less than 1 or 2 survived out of 1000" or "less than 1 out of 10,000".
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Old November 11th, 2012, 05:11 AM   #5

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Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
The bandits at Ming's end were horrifying mobs. They were people who were trying to survive an extremely harsh time and had little scruples or principle. Li, although the leader of the biggest bandit group, rose from the lowest rank of such mob. Yes, Li's mobs killed stunning number of Han Chinese, and many of them were not killed out of necessity. Think of the horror under mob rules during the French Revolution or anywhere.

Actually, Li wasn't even the biggest mass murderer of his time. Another mob leader, Zhang Xien-zhong, slaughtered the province of Szechuan to such an extent that "less than 1 or 2 survived out of 1000" or "less than 1 out of 10,000".
The biggest mass murderers were the Manchu Qing armies. I heard some modernday historians argue that the peoples of Sichuan were actually slaughtered by the Manchu Qing army because they refused to surrender. In order to hide the crimes committed by the Qing armies, official Qing historians framed the case against Zhang Xianzhong by stating that it was him who massacred the Sichuan peoples.

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Old November 11th, 2012, 06:20 AM   #6

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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
The biggest mass murderers were the Manchu Qing armies. I heard some modernday historians argue that the peoples of Sichuan were actually slaughtered by the Manchu Qing army because they refused to surrender. In order to hide the crimes committed by the Qing armies, official Qing historians framed the case against Zhang Xianzhong by stating that it was him who massacred the Sichuan peoples.
Historical records by un-official historians also state it was Zhang that slaughtered Sichuan. For example, 圣教入川记 Chronology of Christianity Entering Sichuan by missionaries who work for Zhang recorded one such massacres, even to the exact date: 11/23/1645. In fact, many of the historical records that recorded Zhang's massacres were banned by Qing government.

If you can read Chinese, maybe this link will interest you: “张献忠屠四川”非造假 成都曾挖出万人枯骨坑 ——中新网
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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by purakjelia View Post
The biggest mass murderers were the Manchu Qing armies. I heard some modernday historians argue that the peoples of Sichuan were actually slaughtered by the Manchu Qing army because they refused to surrender. In order to hide the crimes committed by the Qing armies, official Qing historians framed the case against Zhang Xianzhong by stating that it was him who massacred the Sichuan peoples.
I'm sure the Manchus killed people in Sichuan during their conquest, but to blame all the killings that Zhang Xianzhong did on the Manchus is just a bit too much. Also, many of the Qing massacres were actually conducted by Han troops under Han commanders serving the Manchus.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #8
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Did Li Zicheng's army kill any Han Chinese civilians? If yes, why did he order his army to kill Han Chinese? What is the reason for killing his his own race, Li Zicheng is Han himself.
People die in wars. It's that simple.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #9
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many of the Qing massacres were actually conducted by Han troops under Han commanders serving the Manchus.
Why did Han Troops commanders willing to kill fellow Han civilians under Manchus' order? Did they think killing people is wrong, especially your own ethnicity?

If Han soldiers wanted to kill someone, wouldn't they be wanting to kill the Manchus?
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Old November 14th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #10

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You're putting far to emphasis on ethnicity. In wars people die, as mingming said. Especially civil wars. Americans were rather cruel to one another during the American Civil War. The various civil wars in England are an even better example, with most of the participants having been Anglo-Saxons yet just about every civil war there was rife with wholesale slaughter, torture, and mass executions. They didn't target or spare people based mostly on race or ethnic identity.
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